Adding A Rotating Side Brush to Neato XV's

News and information about the Neato XV-11 Robotic Vacuum. All discussion and troubleshooting questions go here.

Re: Adding A Rotating Side Brush to Neato XV's

Postby glnc222 » May 25th, 2012, 1:26 am

Motor Position Problem
[edited with additional detail and photos 5/26/12, 5/27/12]
sensor.jpg
micro gear motor shaft positions


Three possible shaft positions for the micro gear motor are shown as A, B, and C, each involving altering the case in different ways. Very small distances separate parts with the guard clip hole shown only 5/8" long. A and C are corners of a 1/4" square.

Positions A and C are simplest with the motor in the bottom frame with no shaft extension (shown in previous post). Position A requires removing 1/3 of the back of the brush guard clip to fit over a coupling for the brush on the motor shaft. Position C is useful only for putting the screw coupler inside the case; see below.
guardclip.jpg
brush mount position on guard clip


The motor mounting screw holes are not usable in position A as they overlap the brush guard clip hole. The side motor holes can attach to a block or bracket screwed to a better position on the bottom or sides. This also positions the motor vertically wherever needed.

Both the guard clip and the raised frame around the clip on the bottom cover must have sections removed to allow room for thickness of the coupler to the brush.

Position C
One variation reduces to just a shaft hole through the raised clip frame: putting the coupler inside the case, with a long screw shank on the brush. To lock the motor shaft for leverage unscrewing the brush when overtight, a small hole in the outside of the frame and the bumper would allow insertion of a hex wrench fitting the set screw in the coupling, or an empty hole on the opposite side and if press fit on the shaft. The same access must be made in the brush guard for a coupling outside the case. The motor would be mounted about 5/8" up into the top cover without shortening the shaft. Inside the case is room for wider couplings and longer set screws. The brush guard clip protrudes into the case about 1/8", so the shaft screw coupling is put above that.
This allows the simplest motor mounting in position C, flat against the case side (but off the corner molding at the bottom). The motor mount holes fit on 1/4" #6 spacers; 3/8" require a notch for that corner molding, but also does not fit against the bumper sensor support.
Moving the screw mount inside the case avoids removing the guard clip retaining lip in the clip hole to clear a thick coupler on the outside. Position C is 1/4" closer to the side increasing chances of a brush reaching the wall.

This method may support a dust seal depending on final clearances. The 5-40 3mm screws expand to seal into a 1/8" ball bearing flush on the case bottom, when covered with thin heat shrink tubing. Bearings as small as 1/4" OD available. This also covers the threaded portion of the rotating screw outside the case reducing fiber entanglement. The clip hole inside the case can be covered.


shaftexit3.jpg
brush guard clip frame and shaft coupler space


Position B lifts the motor on spacers above the bumper sensor board, into the top cover. This is closest to the VR-100 position. The sensor switch PC board would have to be replaced by a shorter board not extending above the bottom frame sides and the board edge supports, with a micro tact switch same size as the spring, with the spring moved down to bottom of the frame opening for it about 1/8", and the rear board support cut down to the same height. A #4 nylon flange bushing fits the spring and can be drilled to fit over the stem on 1/4" micro tact switches from Radio Shack. Further in the top cover, the raised part which clamps the top of the sensor board would have to be removed for enough motor height; the motor would rest on the sensor board top instead.
cover.jpg
bumper sensor board clamp in top cover


Reversibility

Position A with coupler outside the case involves permanent cutting of the bottom frame and guard clip, in a way that would still allow the guard clip to work. Position C and inside the case there would be only a hole through the guard clip frame. Position B involves only a small shaft hole in the bottom but removing interior moldings, also repairable but more intricate. While not visible outside, the interior features are necessary for mounting the original parts properly.

The whole thing is experimental in that whether the brush can work on an XV and whether the slight differences in position matter to performance cannot be known without making the case modifications to install for testing.

Other Side Brush Projects

Vic7767 reports work in progress modifying the bumper sensor to fit an old model Roomba brush motor, in thread "Neato Side Brush Mod", http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=16101, details not yet completed, but seems to involve extensive alterations (which may not matter as much to those seeking a use for their old Roomba's and parts). Roomba brush tests may reveal just how useful any side brush addition will be and help decide whether anything further is worthwhile.

am now attempting to install a brush using newly discovered position C -- keep watching the skies...
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4449
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Adding A Rotating Side Brush to Neato XV's

Postby glnc222 » May 30th, 2012, 4:36 am

Installation of Micro Gear Motor Internally

[edit] When first built it was not clear the motor can be removed from the plastic enclosure and be mounted differently. The motor is half an inch narrower than the housing. This would allow moving the shaft about 1/4" -- 6.7mm -- farther towards the front, or at the corner of the brush guard clip hole instead of the center. The spacer method used would have to be replaced by a bracker on the side of the motor, keeping the attachment holes through the bottom of the Neato away from the clip hole. This is closer to the position of Vorwerk's motor shaft.

The Micro Gear Motor mounts with little visible alterations to the case. The brush shaft goes through a 1/8" notch in the side of the brush guard clip hole, in the raised frame. A matching notch in the brush guard to the side of the clip is less noticeable.
casebottom.jpg
Slot added to side of brush guard clip hole



Motor mounting screws are visible on the case bottom, covered by the brush guard. These 6-32 screws are so close to the frame around the guard clip the heads must be filed smaller (though 4-40 screw heads fit, with the motor case holes filled and drilled). The rear screw is countersunk because located under the guard clip portion flush with the case bottom. End of the nylon screw coupling is visible under the notch for the brush shaft. Narrower 1/4" OD spacers are required for position close to the bumper sensor support, and for a 3/32" square molding on the bottom of the inside case wall, under the motor.


A crude experimental test brush is shown 3" in diameter sized to theoretically reach the wall Neato closely follows 5/8" away. Performance and operation tests will be posted later. I only have the 180 RPM motor at present and may need a higher speed model for best results. Brush construction is evolving by trial and error; a few more refinements remain.

screwcoupledbrush.jpg
experimental brush with screw coupled shaft; notch in brush guard clip hole side

mountedbrush.jpg
attached side brush in notched brush guard clip hole


Not shown is an additional feature needed for use: a side hole in the case for inserting a shaft locking probe into the side brush screw coupling, for any problems unscrewing the brush. The case cannot be opened without detaching the brush, and the coupling is inside -- catch 22. Very few turns, however, are used for coupling. A tap produces threads similar to regular nuts and bolts, while self-tapping the screw gives tighter fits. Oddly a very inexpensive specialty left hand tap is listed on Amazon while otherwise hard to find. A companion feature is access through bottom of the brush to the hex wrench socket in the screw shaft. Neither is expected to be used, but the odd situation demands it.

motormounted.jpg
micro gear motor in bottom frame against side bumper sensor


The brush shaft hole, more a notch, is best cut with a file; the plastic is very soft. Drill bits don't seem to perform well without surrounding material, tending to get pushed off center.

The screw coupling used is a 1/4" OD #4 screw size nylon spacer with 4-40 set screw and left hand threaded for the brush shaft; aluminum also suitable and gives tighter hold of the set screw. Part of the coupling width extends over the edge of the brush guard clip center hump protruding inside the case and requires slight clearance above. [revision 5/30/12]. The clip overhang is so small an invisible amount of the brush clip hump can be shaved off clearing the coupler -- excluding the set screw -- down to the bottom, providing generous length of the 1" left hand screw shaft below the case for brush attachment. Mounting spacers might be reduced to 5/16" (not a standard part length), even a half depending on fine details of coupler form.
Several fine details apply to positioning the coupling on the motor shaft.
Last edited by glnc222 on April 3rd, 2014, 2:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4449
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Adding A Rotating Side Brush to Neato XV's

Postby glnc222 » June 6th, 2012, 2:29 am

Testing is delayed for repairs to a damaged wall sensor. Further construction details are developed in the meantime.

Shaft Locking Rod

The faster 460 RPM motor received has lower resistance from reduced gearing and requires external shaft locking for screwing the brush in/out.

Case Side Hole for Locking Rod

The hole for a shaft locking rod fits just behind the bumper, in the indented side, passing through a 1/4" enclosed hollow in Neato's bottom frame at the end of the bumper, into the motor shaft at a certain acute angle, from behind, outside of the motor mount vertical spacer. Thus no need for an additional hole in the bumper itself. This angled position is required anyway to supply a solid block of material to hold the rod stiffly against twisting by the motor shaft coupler rotating. If inserted straight into the side, additional plastic would have to be added inside the case.
lockrod.jpg
position of motor shaft locking rod for screw coupled side brush

Just as the motor fits neatly into the Neato case, so apparently does the required shaft locking rod.

The bottom 1/2" of the frame hollow is filled epoxy to provide a solid block around the rod locking it against twisting to the side by the motor shaft.

The outer edge of the hole may be beveled in slightly to assist inserting the locking rod.

drill guide

The motor can be mounted upside down with the shaft upwards (mounting holes duplicated both ends of motor), and a rod attached to the coupler extending out the side to determine the angle of a hole matching this rod position. A drill guide can be constructed as follows: a hole straight through a 1/2" block close to the side fitting onto the rod on the upside down motor. With the corner of the this block pressed against the side of the case, glue on another block below pressed flat against the side, securing the specific angle of the hole. A third block can be added pressing against the case bottom underneath, to secure the vertical hole position. Then the final vertical position of the hole can be determined from the details of the shaft coupling and mounting spacers used. The guide might be clamped to the side at top.

For the most accurate registration the final hole in the spacer receiving the rod is drilled through the hole first made in the case.

At least that is what will be attempted.

Coupler Expansion Required

For a good grip on the locking rod a thicker spacer is required, which can be constructed only by layering a 1/4" or 3/16" ID 3/8" OD over a 1/4" or 3/16" ID #4 screw size spacer to fit the shaft (unless a solid plastic rod were drilled, unnecessary). The locking rod hole is then a full 1/8" deep. A 1/2" OD spacer could also be used were it possible to sand down the diameter slightly to clear the case side, which is difficult with a piece this wide. 3/8" OD spacers go up to only 3/16" ID, but can be drilled to 1/4" if the inner spacer is that size. This provides a better locking of the two by a set screw only, and assists in gluing to the shaft later.

There is a use to gluing the coupler to the shaft in order to prevent it sliding up and down, with clearances required both above and below on the shaft, losing alignment with the shaft locking rod. The brush screw exerts a strong pull when turned against the butted end of the motor shaft, for instance, and the brush gets pushed and pulled against the coupler in handling.
With only 1/32" clearance above and below the coupler, movement is limited by the motor face at the top and the case at the bottom, so expanding the rod engaging hole in the coupler into an elongated slot would also help with this. But the clearances also need to be maintained to prevent rubbing.

The 3/8" OD outer spacer must be shorter than the inner 1/4", which fits past the brush guard clip in the bottom, while the 3/8" diameter must fit above with slight clearance over the 1/8" clip protrusion into the case bottom.

Aluminum spacers require taps tools for inserting a set screw and seem unnecessary. The left-hand tap for the brush screw just drills into the nylon, and the screw can self-thread as well. The square end of the tap might fit a 9/64" nut driver, but haven't tried; it is somewhere between the 1/4" and 5/32", though.

It all reads and sounds more complicated than it is in practice, once the final dimensions are given.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4449
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Adding A Rotating Side Brush to Neato XV's

Postby glnc222 » June 6th, 2012, 1:53 pm

screwless coupling found

Only from working with the left hand screw tap were discovered tiny nut drivers as small as 5/64" (as in a listing for Hunter Miniature Nut Drivers on Ebay) -- almost 1/16". The 5-40 tap with slightly over 1/8" shaft and square end needs at least a 9/64. A 1/8" shaft similar to the left hand screw might be filed flat on the end to fit one of these drivers, which can be used as the brush coupling, with a nylon coupling to the driver on the motor shaft. I will obtain one of these to check.

They even come magnetized:
http://www.amazon.com/Nut-Driver-64-Mag-Handle/dp/B007P4R692/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1339005343&sr=8-6
-- similar to the VR-100 magnetic mounting, just reversed which side is hollow or solid.
Small neodymium magnet dots may also be available to insert in a nut driver cavity.

The matching hex allen wrench can be used as the brush shaft eliminating machining shafts. Could be some problems flexing in the hole throught the plastic case.
The 7/64" hex wrench fits the #4 nylon spacers used for coupling and the 1/8" shaft holes, with the 1/8" wrench slightly oversize.

This would eliminate the need for a shaft lock feature. Will see if can fit the lengths involved.

[6/7/12 addition] Obtained 3/32" precision nut driver from Ace Hardware, fits a ready made coupler 1/8"-to-3/16" from ServoCity.com, greatly simplifying installation. 3/32" hex wrench for shaft.
Awaiting parts.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4449
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Adding A Rotating Side Brush to Neato XV's

Postby glnc222 » June 7th, 2012, 1:19 pm

Motor Control Circuit Needed -- Suggestions Welcome

Without factory software and circuits to control an additional motor added for a side brush, a small control board might be possible to supplement a fuse. I suggest a circuit which cuts off the motor when current load exceeds a limit indicating the brush is entangled or blocked, but which turns on again after a fifteen second delay, repeatedly trying to run as the vacuum moves away from problem areas.

I don't know enough details of components to fully specify this, but suggest a cut off relay triggered through a zener diode with small resistor in series with the motor to get a voltage. Tests show the motor current may quadruple when blocked, while normally running 100-200ma on the 15.5V power line. With extra relay poles or some gate logic the relay would latch after cutting it's triggered power, and reopen under control of a 555 timer chip. I can imagine just using logic gate trigger levels instead of a zener as well. Chip power from a resistor divider on the 15V power. Gate chips are now CMOS instead of the old TTL it seems.
It has to be simple and compact. It would be good if components were limited to Radio Shack's catalog.

Any circuit designers interested?
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4449
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Adding A Rotating Side Brush to Neato XV's

Postby vic7767 » June 7th, 2012, 2:11 pm

Check on the Digi-key website for an inline poly fuse. They will reset, just look for one in the operational range you need. Voltage and threshold current.
Roomba and Neato Mods, come visit: http://www.vic7767.com/

http://www.Robot-Doc.com/
User avatar
vic7767
Robot Master
 
Posts: 14329
Joined: January 14th, 2006, 8:31 pm
Location: Haughton Louisiana - USA

Re: Adding A Rotating Side Brush to Neato XV's

Postby glnc222 » June 7th, 2012, 10:06 pm

[edit] recommend polyfuse Bourns MF-USMF020-2, 200ma hold/400ma trip, .02 sec, .4 ohms
Only tiny surface mount available in fast types; gets too hot to touch from size, solder between edges of spade lugs for heat sink and put in heat shrink tube.
Digi-Key part MF-USMF020-2CT-ND

Polyfuses listed under their abbreviation PTC devices, from "polymeric positive temperature coefficient". Littlefuse note http://www.littelfuse.com/design/literature/fuse-vs-ptc/selecting-ptc-or-fuse.html
Wikipedia description http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resettable_fuse
Digi-Key catalog PTC resettable fuses http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/circuit-protection/ptc-resettable-fuses/656272
Radioshack carries as "polymeric resettable", rating in Watts, e.g.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12645242

Datasheets at http://www.datasheets.org.uk/16018-ECG-datasheet.html
-- problem with the wire-lead ones is long trip times up to 15 seconds.
The fast ones all in concave, those indents on the end, packages, at Digi-Key. Also need adequate normal hold current, motor must be analyzed with brush on surfaces. e.g. 200ma hold, 400ma trip, .6 seconds.

Says operating temperature 85 farenheit? Is this for refrigerators? It's 90's here in the summer.

Looks exactly like the flat brown thing on the right side of the Neato system board. Must be good if Neato has it already. For overheating processor?

Reset occurs just from cooling off; insulate to control the time? Inexpensive. The fast-blow fuses anyway are over $2 in brick and mortar, wouldn't want to replace often.
Last edited by glnc222 on March 30th, 2014, 3:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4449
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Adding A Rotating Side Brush to Neato XV's

Postby vic7767 » June 7th, 2012, 10:55 pm

The ones that may work are used in the Roomba and Scooba batteries. Here's a picture of one.
Attachments
a.gif
Roomba and Neato Mods, come visit: http://www.vic7767.com/

http://www.Robot-Doc.com/
User avatar
vic7767
Robot Master
 
Posts: 14329
Joined: January 14th, 2006, 8:31 pm
Location: Haughton Louisiana - USA

Re: Adding A Rotating Side Brush to Neato XV's

Postby glnc222 » June 7th, 2012, 11:38 pm

I suspect the 85 degree operating temperature is just the point up to which it restricts no current with some curve from there. Something running much hotter is not going to trip properly.

The tripping current needs to be as low as 300-500 ma, way below the whole-system battery supply. At 15.5V that's around 3-4 watts like some at Radio Shack, but Digi-Key is inexpensive, too, and more selection.

Getting another, intermediate speed 270rpm motor to compare because the 460 rpm is slowed way down on carpet and subject to stalling there when obstructed, and drawing more than the 180rpm motor keeping it's speed there, even though fine on hard surfaces. Someone reported some problem with the VR side brush on deep pile carpet or the like. Anything besides hard floors needs the resettable fuse. Wonderful gadget. Progress in the old GE tradition.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4449
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Adding A Rotating Side Brush to Neato XV's

Postby vic7767 » June 7th, 2012, 11:46 pm

Coming from Bell Telephone Laboratories and Western Electric, I know what ya mean.
Roomba and Neato Mods, come visit: http://www.vic7767.com/

http://www.Robot-Doc.com/
User avatar
vic7767
Robot Master
 
Posts: 14329
Joined: January 14th, 2006, 8:31 pm
Location: Haughton Louisiana - USA

Re: Adding A Rotating Side Brush to Neato XV's

Postby glnc222 » June 10th, 2012, 5:32 pm

Hex key shaft fittings

Two ways of using hex key side brush shafts: (1) nut driver socket in the brush, with straight 1/8" motor shaft coupler (coupler shown is too long, just illustration).
(2) nut driver socket in 1/8-to-3/16 motor shaft coupler with shaft part of brush.

Hex keys need a rounded section at the end and the driver tips drilled out for a longer fitting than the thin nut grabbing cavity. Slightly wider 2.5mm fits the 1/8" coupler better but still needs a layer of tape to tighten. This would also fit a 3mm bearing more closely than the 3/32" key. The outside diameter of a 2.5mm drivers is not available, but the differences in width over 3/32 indicates a better fit to the 3/16" adapter same as on the straight coupler. The 3/32" nut driver is slightly smaller than 3/16" and also requires tape to tighten. All parts can be magnetized with common tool magnetizers for screw drivers etc.
couplers.jpg
shaft couplers for 2.5mm and 3/32" hex key, nut driver tip in 3/16 coupling with rounded end key



side motor wiring to vacuum
26 gauge wire (and probably others) fits through the rear resistor plug opening to reach to vacuum motor, snakes out back of system board without raising the board. Telephone wire splice connectors don't work well on the vacuum wire, best larger gauge or other taps.
motorwiretop.jpg
side brush wiring to vacuum, over back of system bd to resistor plug underneath (green)

motorwirebottom.jpg
side brush wires through resistor plug opening to vacuum (green)
Last edited by glnc222 on June 11th, 2012, 3:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4449
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Adding A Rotating Side Brush to Neato XV's

Postby Herbys » June 10th, 2012, 10:28 pm

As I don't like rotating brushes since they tangle with cables and other things they may find on the floor, I would suggest a more sophisticated approach.
Put a mechanical deflector between the vacuum motor and the brush area so the air flow can be commuted between a secondary air intake at the corner of the neato and the main entrance below.
Activate this air intake whenever the Neato is making a pass by the wall.
As a hack, the activation should be partial and done based on a proximity/contact sensor on the side.
As an OEM implementation it should be done via programming, having the robot do a second pass along the wall without the brush enabled and only using the full power of the vacuum on the side intake, which given the small size of the intake should have enough power to lift any lose debris it finds.

Yes, it is much more complicated than adding a brush, but it gets the same benefits without the downsides of a vertical brush.
Herbys
 
Posts: 4
Joined: September 11th, 2011, 12:41 am

Re: Adding A Rotating Side Brush to Neato XV's

Postby glnc222 » June 11th, 2012, 2:16 am

Two other members previously suggested the "leafblower" feature be developed by vacuum companies -- it requires development and software support, not available to homegamers much. Must be something to it when everyone thinks of it eventually. Some tests were even done in another thread redirecting the exhaust, "edge vacuuming mod", http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=15925.

I did not like Roomba's brush messing up cords but their brush extends a lot farther away from the case. Will have to get a Neato brush working before I can tell how it works. Haven't seen much comment by Vorwerk users.
My own preference was to make a better front intake extending full width of the unit. Tricky with the bumpers etc. used. I also doubt brushes do as much on carpet as on hard floors, with the dirt too trapped to be wisked off by a little sweep -- or an air blast.

Neato's bumper is a bulky thing allowing four simple switches to be used as detectors. There is probably a more expensive and compact sort of touch sensitive strip that could be used allowing more freedom with the intake design.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4449
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Adding A Rotating Side Brush to Neato XV's

Postby glnc222 » June 11th, 2012, 6:04 pm

Results from 270 RPM MGB-100 with four arm 3" side brush on hard floor
Image

Tests on carpet are difficult to interpret with loose debris easily swept, compared to actual cleaning needs. Hard floors may also allow dust to be blown into corners more than carpet environments, though no scientific data.
There would be nothing much to see in any video not already shown in VR-100 movies; the brush extends only slightly beyond the case and runs to fast to see, even if seen underneath through a transparent floor. This brush does seem a bit slower than the VR, though.

Test of one level teaspoon ground coffee over two inches next to wall.
Humidity 60 per cent, raining outside, increasing stickiness of debris.

Base Line Standard Neato XV-11 without side brush
before.jpg
Before: ground coffee over 2" adjacent to wall on hard floor
Repeated applications have varied patterns in detail.

standardremainder.jpg
Remains after standard Neato XV-11 without side brush

stdrecovery.jpg
Recovered by standard Neato without side brush

Some recovery over the 1/4-1/2 inch farthest from wall -- test not setup for fine enough measurement that small.

XV-11 With 270 RPM 4 Arm 3" Side Brush
Mounting position C in previous posts, in line with VR-100 position but about 1/2 inch farther back.

aftersidebrushing.jpg
remains after Neato wall following with side brush

siderecovery.jpg
recovered by XV-11 with 270 RPM 4 arm side brush

sideremainder.jpg
Remains unrecovered by Neato with side brush


7/7/12 No Extraction On Carpet
A test on carpet in later post below is linked here. The side brush does not move material on carpet enough to get into the intake, as the carpet grips the material. It was just moved around on the carpet, with virtually nothing in the bin.
Image
Image

Other Results This Motor

The motor is too noisy mounted as is, making the Neato case a sounding board, and needs to be tested with sound absorbing mounts: rubber grommets, separation from case side and support contacts etc. The pitch is high and shrill accentuating the problem. Fairly easy alternatives available but need testing.

The 270 RPM MGB-100 Micro Gear Motor by RobotZone (marketing arm Servocity.com) is the best model in their lineup, faster than the 170 RPM with higher torque but with usable torque on carpet, while the next faster 460 RPM is iffy on torque for carpet. There is only a marginal improvement possible with nearly complete extraction already. The 270 MGB-100 has enough gear resistance to remove a screw mount shaft in most cases without resorting to the shaft lock, but this is without extensive use. A superior hex mounting is awaiting parts.

Current load for the MGB-100 with 4 arm brush on 15.4V Neato vacuum line is 130ma on hard floor, 160ma on carpet, and 200ma with Neato scraping the wall (not following normal 5/8" out). A polyfuse 200ma hold, 400 trip looks appropriate; testing to follow.
Last edited by glnc222 on July 7th, 2012, 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4449
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Adding A Rotating Side Brush to Neato XV's

Postby aq1okl000e0f03ldpsa0 » June 12th, 2012, 2:55 am

Good work, thank you for the detailed test imagery!!!

The concept definitely looks sound! And the mess the brush makes could be tweaked. We are definitely held back by commercial-political machinations which prevent our Neatos from having such an innovation built in :(
aq1okl000e0f03ldpsa0
 
Posts: 4
Joined: May 27th, 2012, 1:11 am

Re: Adding A Rotating Side Brush to Neato XV's

Postby glnc222 » June 12th, 2012, 3:46 am

Thanks for your compliment. I bet VR's make the same mess with small grains bouncing off the wall or thrown into the back circle etc. The brush quality may matter, though.
Bits missed by the front intake are thrown backwards by brush behind, compared to Roomba's rear intake behind the brush. Too little clearance to slant rear arms off the floor.

Would you undertake such an installation on your Neato, voiding the warranty (or after it expires?)? Messy making a brush.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4449
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Adding A Rotating Side Brush to Neato XV's

Postby glnc222 » June 14th, 2012, 2:32 am

Side Brush Motor Noise

[edit] This installation makes more noise than the Vorwerk or BotVac brush because it is driven by a gear motor entirely; the gears make the high pitched noise. The regular models are belt driven for speed reduction, much quieter. A slightly different internal case structure is needed to accommodate those motors.

Three short YouTube videos, for the sound tracks, give an idea of the noise level from the micro gear motor. Cell phone recordings 15 inches away. Absolute levels not well indicated but relative to the normal Neato sound is interesting.
The first shows the brush spinning through plexiglass simulated floor, upside down. The sound sequence is first the side brush alone, then the main brush alone, then adding the vacuum and side brush (reverse of normal start up, to isolate the main brush sound).
http://youtu.be/roAB1TpIBJw

Two more videos are for the sound track only, with just view of the Neato in place.
Some difference may be due to the unit facing up, so a second video gives the normal start up sequence, with side brush -- which comes on first -- on hard floor: http://youtu.be/vvZ-wiogcy8

Sound is noticeably reduced on carpet, as though projected downward by Neato's case, so the third video gives the start up sequence on carpet: http://youtu.be/roAB1TpIBJw
Ironic with main interest use on hard floors.

These may help users decide whether this motor is acceptable for a side brush given it's noise level.

grommet Mounting
A different mounting on grommet attachment was tested, used in the last two videos above, with no apparent reduction in sound levels. This mounting separates the motor from the case with a 1/16 layer of viscoelastic auto trim foam tape on the face with side screws through grommets instead of vertical spacers, foam on the rear edge and top edge, and a double layer of duck tape on the edge side flush with the case and sensor support (no room for anything thicker). Probably creates heat dissipation problems, and with no sound reduction, is not used. Use of a bracket instead of spacers, though, simplifies installation of mounting screws, with everything pre-aligned.
soundmount.jpg
grommet mounted micro gear motor


polyfuse motor control
Thanks to Vic7767's info a resettable polyfuse was added. The 3/16" surface mount device is so small that when dissipating only 1/2 watt when tripped is too hot to touch, but when soldered between spade lugs as heat spreaders, is cool enough to put in heat shrink tubing and mount near the motor.
Re: Adding A Rotating Side Brush to Neato XV's
[edit] recommend polyfuse Bourns MF-USMF020-2, 200ma hold/400ma trip, .02 sec, .4 ohms
Only tiny surface mount available in fast types; gets too hot to touch from size, solder between edges of spade lugs for heat sink and put in heat shrink tube.
Digi-Key part MF-USMF020-2CT-ND

polyfuse.jpg
3/16" polyfuse with spade lugs in heat shrink tubing, 26 gauge wire
Last edited by glnc222 on October 28th, 2014, 7:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4449
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Adding A Rotating Side Brush to Neato XV's

Postby chris-s » June 14th, 2012, 5:02 am

Does "resettable" mean that the polyfuse can block a high current, then automatically reset to work again ? without to be replaced ?
Chris, FRANCE
Neato XV-15 since May 4, 2012
Scooba 230 since May 31, 2012
Braava 380 since May 25, 2013
Botvac 85 since September 30, 2014
User avatar
chris-s
Robot Addict
 
Posts: 208
Joined: May 1st, 2012, 4:41 am
Location: FRANCE

Re: Adding A Rotating Side Brush to Neato XV's

Postby mfortuna » June 14th, 2012, 6:21 am

Yes,that is how it works. A polyfuse is basically a thermistor. High current increases the temperature and resistance. Low current lowers the temperature and resistance. The fuse doesn't reset until the current source is removed or lowered to a certain value (It depends on the fuse).
Mike
Reds x 3, Dirt Dog, Disco (now a parts bot), Create, Scooba 350, and Security Dawg
Evolution Mint
Neato XV-11
User avatar
mfortuna
Robot Master
 
Posts: 5760
Joined: February 5th, 2006, 10:35 am
Location: NH

Re: Adding A Rotating Side Brush to Neato XV's

Postby chris-s » June 14th, 2012, 6:29 am

OK thanks for information.
So, does that mean that I could charge a Scooba 230 battery with an external fast charger without any risk for the polyfuse and battery ?
Chris, FRANCE
Neato XV-15 since May 4, 2012
Scooba 230 since May 31, 2012
Braava 380 since May 25, 2013
Botvac 85 since September 30, 2014
User avatar
chris-s
Robot Addict
 
Posts: 208
Joined: May 1st, 2012, 4:41 am
Location: FRANCE

PreviousNext

Return to Neato Robotics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: aarolar, walbro and 333 guests