XV-21 wont turn on, new charger model?

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Re: XV-21 wont turn on, new charger model?

Postby a4refillpad » December 22nd, 2012, 8:52 pm

interesting but errr... the new bricks have a lower capacity charger....
old: 24V 2.5A
new: 24V 1.67A

What's more important is where can we buy the new bricks from? The fact that the old ones do not work and neato not advertising this change, you run a fair chance of wasting your money.
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Re: XV-21 wont turn on, new charger model?

Postby glnc222 » December 22nd, 2012, 9:22 pm

Unless those bricks have uses besides Neato's, you won't find them separately from the charging bases - who would want them? Something unusual is involved if the same voltage and higher capacity supply doesn't work with new bases. The old bricks had a very generic spec label on them, just a straight power supply. Could there be a 120/220v issue? These bricks, in virtue of their transistor core, had become independent of the input supply, no American-Euro difference.
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Re: XV-21 wont turn on, new charger model?

Postby glnc222 » December 22nd, 2012, 9:55 pm

XV-11 2011 charger

connectors vary, but common:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=3a-501da24&d=directv-3a-501da24-24v-switching-mode-power-supply-%283a-501da24%29&utm_campaign=base&utm_medium=organic&utm_source=google_base

anything on new labels to indicate non-generic, special for Neato?

interesting fourth language at the label bottom: such a long word
Attachments
PSUlabel.jpg
2011 XV-11 PSU brick label
PSUlabel.jpg (30.36 KiB) Viewed 3136 times
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Re: XV-21 wont turn on, new charger model?

Postby a4refillpad » December 22nd, 2012, 10:03 pm

new label:
CameraZOOM-20121223010024054.jpg

My experimentation is showing that regardless of base (old or new) if the older brick is attached the new neato moves away from the dock after a few seconds of charging.
current bots: Clebo Arte, Vorwerk VR-100 (one broken one new), Neato XV-25, Neato XV-12, Roomba 564, Evo Mint 2, Roomba 770, Hauzen VC-RE70V, Samsung SR8980, Karcher RC3000, Robomow RL350 (lawnmower)
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Re: XV-21 wont turn on, new charger model?

Postby vic7767 » December 22nd, 2012, 10:19 pm

It would appear that the base is not the issue but the new Neato firmware will not accept a charging current of 2.5 amps.
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Re: XV-21 wont turn on, new charger model?

Postby glnc222 » December 22nd, 2012, 10:23 pm

Am curious if the following is not occurring, though takes instruments maybe:
The new neato relies on the lower capacity of the charger to shut it off by exceeding it's load at a certain point, possibly as protection against the old bad connection over heating problem.
With the higher capacity old charger, it doesn't shut off, and when Neato doesn't detect the shut off, takes additional action disconnecting vacuum from dock.
MIght tell with a volt meter on the plates.
Whatever it is, sure ain't simple.
New charger looks smaller from lower capacity or other advances over time, dock interior adjusted accordingly.

Might try to find any generic 1.5amp capacity 24v brick. Save the Neato connector and splice it in.
[url]http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200578792_200578792?cm_mmc=Google-pla-_-Batteries%2C%20Chargers%20%2B%20Jump%20Starters-_-Battery%20Chargers-_-28224&ci_sku=28224&ci_gpa=pla&ci_kw={keyword}&gclid=CIOry468r7QCFQWe4AodgjQAzg[/url]
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Re: XV-21 wont turn on, new charger model?

Postby a4refillpad » December 22nd, 2012, 10:36 pm

Would be nice if Neato do something to help all their customers who bought extra docks. Those customers that have bought additional docks and accessories are invariably fans of their product. Just making new bricks available for sale separately (which is what vorwerk do in Germany) would be a good start.
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Re: XV-21 wont turn on, new charger model?

Postby glnc222 » December 22nd, 2012, 11:57 pm

new Neato firmware will not accept a charging current of 2.5 amps

Can a charging circuit work relying on power supply capacity to regulate the current? I thought the internal Neato charging circuit -- or any such -- did that job, better than a dumb charger. Sensors on all the parameters.
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Re: XV-21 wont turn on, new charger model?

Postby vic7767 » December 23rd, 2012, 12:43 am

The key point being that the power supply peak output current of 2.5 amps can be measured by the firmware and that is what shuts down the Neato. I'm sure other measurements are there also like total voltage and battery temp on each battery pack but since they would not be exceeded early in the charging cycle, the shutdown trigger was the PSU giving its all (current).
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Re: XV-21 wont turn on, new charger model?

Postby glnc222 » December 23rd, 2012, 2:02 am

Thanks for that informative technical info. The battery stuff is quite a specialty. That design seems flaky to me, some sort of short cut. Batteries have a maximum current charge rate specific to their composition from what I read, and a charger ought to have a specific current limiter calibrated to it; over-speed charging damages the electrolyte in some part each time. Just opening the tap seems odd, since often you would not predict anything about the power supply except that it is sufficient for the maximum power designed; you would not even know what power supply would be used when designing the charger. Requiring a power supply with some maximum limit is just very odd. But wonders never cease.
Yet this does indicate a generic 1.5amp charger may work. Problem can be physical dimensions to fit in the base.
Those power supplies are not exactly cheap. It might pay to just buy the bases.
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Re: XV-21 wont turn on, new charger model?

Postby glnc222 » December 23rd, 2012, 3:00 am

Something's inconsistent. If you place a load on a 1.5amp supply that could go to 2.5amp on a bigger supply, you'd trip the shut down on the 1.5amp. How can that work?
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Re: XV-21 wont turn on, new charger model?

Postby glnc222 » December 23rd, 2012, 5:23 am

Inexpensive Neato PSU listing ebay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Neato-XV-11-XV-12-Automatic-Vacuum-Cleaner-Battery-Charger-for-Charging-Base-/270958885504?pt=Battery_Chargers&hash=item3f16687a80

A mfg operation, no quantity limit. Brooklyn, New York City, worldwide shipping.
Odd spec 1.5A input -- XV-21. Weird label. You'd need to check whether it is 1.5A output.

Someone in Mountain View was also listing new XV-11's for $229, U.S. only.
Last edited by glnc222 on December 23rd, 2012, 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: XV-21 wont turn on, new charger model?

Postby a4refillpad » December 23rd, 2012, 7:36 am

Not clear from the picture whether or not it is compatible with gen1 or gen2 here. For some strange reason the output in the picture looks incomplete. In fact it's a little concerning because it just say "19" and nothing else!
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Re: XV-21 wont turn on, new charger model?

Postby neato » December 23rd, 2012, 8:16 pm

The 3.0 and newer Neato charging systems are not backward compatible with the previous versions. The changes are both in the base and Neato.

The older versions of Neatos will charge from the newer bases, but the newer Neatos will not charge from the older bases.

If a newer Neato docks to an older base, the base will switch off, protecting both the base and the Neato.
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Re: XV-21 wont turn on, new charger model?

Postby a4refillpad » December 23rd, 2012, 9:20 pm

@neato, if I were to buy a base from a reseller, how would I know if it is a new one or not? My base is only a few months old and was purchased way after v3 neatos were already available. I had no idea about incompatibilities at the time as I then had an older model. There is no indication anywhere as to the version of the base before buying.
current bots: Clebo Arte, Vorwerk VR-100 (one broken one new), Neato XV-25, Neato XV-12, Roomba 564, Evo Mint 2, Roomba 770, Hauzen VC-RE70V, Samsung SR8980, Karcher RC3000, Robomow RL350 (lawnmower)
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Re: XV-21 wont turn on, new charger model?

Postby JEfromCanada » December 24th, 2012, 12:19 am

@a4refillpad

Based on Neato's reply, if you have an "older" Neato, then it doesn't matter what kind of base you purchased. It only becomes relevant if you have a "newer" Neato.
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Re: XV-21 wont turn on, new charger model?

Postby glnc222 » December 24th, 2012, 1:28 am

So a 1.5amp power supply in a new base charges older Neato's just as well as the 2.5amp supply in old bases, not slower? The battery capacity hasn't changed. Sounds like the old supply was over specified, something available when they started up, refined when its time came. I expect bigger ones cost more, as they certainly retail more. Good execution as they say on the street. Not much different than what happens with computers. No more vinyl phonograph records in the CD player. What to do with all those 8-track tapes.
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Re: XV-21 wont turn on, new charger model?

Postby a4refillpad » December 27th, 2012, 2:06 pm

Still does not give me any clue as to how to buy one which will work. As I said before, I purchased my dock after v3 neatos came out and yet it is still an "old" one that doesn't. Surely I'm not the only one in this predicament? These docks are very expensive and cost over a hundred euros. In fact all I really need are just power bricks but the official neato response seemed to skirt the topic. Anyone else know where I can purchase this "spare part"?
current bots: Clebo Arte, Vorwerk VR-100 (one broken one new), Neato XV-25, Neato XV-12, Roomba 564, Evo Mint 2, Roomba 770, Hauzen VC-RE70V, Samsung SR8980, Karcher RC3000, Robomow RL350 (lawnmower)
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Re: XV-21 wont turn on, new charger model?

Postby neato » December 27th, 2012, 4:45 pm

The charge base changes are not in the power brick. Changing the power brick will not make an older base work with a newer Neato.

Please call Neato Customer Care 24/7 at (1-877-296-3286) and describe this issue.
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Re: XV-21 wont turn on, new charger model?

Postby holmes4 » December 27th, 2012, 9:53 pm

Calling an 877 number from Europe might be a problem....
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