Neato Xv-25 battery upgrade

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Neato Xv-25 battery upgrade

Postby ilpirata » January 7th, 2013, 6:57 am

Hi all,

I have recently bougth the robot in the subject.
I have noticed that the battery lasts only 40 minutes, while I read that older versions lasts approximately 70 minutes or more.

My question is, is that normal? For a big house it requires even two charges, which makes the complete cleaning cycle quit long.

The robot also produces a very strange and high noise that makes it almost impossible to have it running at home while you're there.

Second quesiton:
is is possible to substitute the Ni-Mh batteries with Li-on based versions? For instance the Vorwerk VR100 has that kind of batteries. Do you think I can put those (if I manage to find them) on my robot?

The robot also presents some strange behaviour while novigating. It gets "confused" some time and go back to doing the same perimeter a second and also a third time (sometimes).

Thanks!!
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Re: Neato Xv-25 battery upgrade

Postby c.mueller » January 7th, 2013, 8:37 am

ilpirata wrote:Second quesiton:
is is possible to substitute the Ni-Mh batteries with Li-on based versions? For instance the Vorwerk VR100 has that kind of batteries. Do you think I can put those (if I manage to find them) on my robot?

No, it is not possible...
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Re: Neato Xv-25 battery upgrade

Postby ilpirata » January 7th, 2013, 8:50 am

c.mueller wrote:
ilpirata wrote:Second quesiton:
is is possible to substitute the Ni-Mh batteries with Li-on based versions? For instance the Vorwerk VR100 has that kind of batteries. Do you think I can put those (if I manage to find them) on my robot?

No, it is not possible...

Just out of curiosity,
could you argument a bit why not?
Thanks
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Re: Neato Xv-25 battery upgrade

Postby c.mueller » January 7th, 2013, 9:45 am

Different chemistry needs different charging algorythm. It is not possible to update a XV with a VR firmware...
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Re: Neato Xv-25 battery upgrade

Postby ilpirata » January 7th, 2013, 1:05 pm

c.mueller wrote:Different chemistry needs different charging algorythm. It is not possible to update a XV with a VR firmware...

:thumbup:
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Re: Neato Xv-25 battery upgrade

Postby kamiraa » January 7th, 2013, 7:25 pm

unless you want a fire, don't try to use li-on batteries that fit in place of the nickel metal.

You need a different style charger which will hard cut off the charge instead of trickle charging past 100%.
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Re: Neato Xv-25 battery upgrade

Postby a4refillpad » January 7th, 2013, 7:28 pm

I know the charger isn't any different. It is likely the circuitry unique to the VR100 that handles this.
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Re: Neato Xv-25 battery upgrade

Postby ilpirata » January 8th, 2013, 10:43 am

In any case, the reduced battery duration (from more than 80m to 40m) is almost a shame.
I bought the product thinking it would clean the house in one hour, or so, while now, with the needed recharging time, it requires almost 3 hours.
Do you think we can ask for a replacement (from xv-25 to xv-15)?
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Re: Neato Xv-25 battery upgrade

Postby a4refillpad » January 8th, 2013, 4:58 pm

I think I have seen somewhere that a forum poster said they replaced the batteries and the run time increased. Not sure if that was validated or not or just an extreme case where the batteries were faulty.
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Re: Neato Xv-25 battery upgrade

Postby vic7767 » January 8th, 2013, 5:14 pm

I replaced the stock battery pair with a 4500 mAH mod. The run times varied from 25 minutes to 55 minutes. Still had 14.5 to 15 vdc when deciding to return to base. There seem to be two issues with the short run times some owners experienced. One is the faulty battery packs. The other evidently is a firmware change within 3.0
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Re: Neato Xv-25 battery upgrade

Postby mfortuna » January 8th, 2013, 5:40 pm

It sounds like they are trying to improve battery life by not discharging the batteries completely. Although NIMHs are touted to not have a memory effect they still do, but not as bad as NICADs. I can see this partial discharge causing a run time issue as well.

On the flip side the Neato is smart enough to return to base, recharge, and resume. It is still going to run the same amount of time to clean, but cleaning will get spread across multiple charge cycles.
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Re: Neato Xv-25 battery upgrade

Postby glnc222 » January 10th, 2013, 6:08 pm

They should be more explicit about what square footage is suitable for one Neato. Cleaning a mansion probably needs more than one bot, compared to excessively frequent battery replacements from deep discharges. Hybrid cars run NiMh batteries over ten years with thousands or hundreds of thousands of cycles, never going below 30 per cent capacity. And from reports the capacity of that battery pack can be substantially increased even with NiMh.
I would be leary of running LiOn batteries in something run unattended in a house, given the current requirement of perfect quality control to avoid fire hazards. That chemistry has a positive feedback instability if not absolutely pure. Fine for laptops and power tools, but not unattended inside a house. Insurance companies could even take action against that if they had any sense. I don't even care who makes the batteries, the chemistry is just not fault tolerant, though they're supposed to be working on changing it.
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Re: Neato Xv-25 battery upgrade

Postby robocleaner » January 11th, 2013, 10:23 pm

glnc222 wrote:I would be leary of running LiOn batteries in something run unattended in a house, given the current requirement of perfect quality control to avoid fire hazards... the chemistry is just not fault tolerant

Wasn't it the Li-Ion batteries in Japan Airlines brand-new Boeing 787 Dreamliner that started the fire last week that took 40 minutes to put out? What with brake faults, cracked wind-shields, oil leaks, fuel leaks, dodgy batteries starting fires... the Dreamliner is rapidly becoming the Neato of the skies!
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Re: Neato Xv-25 battery upgrade

Postby glnc222 » January 12th, 2013, 1:51 am

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100265529
In 2007, the FAA issued rules about lithium batteries writing, "In general, lithium ion batteries are significantly more susceptible to internal failures that can result in self-sustaining increases in temperature and pressure. ... The metallic lithium can ignite, resulting in a self-sustaining fire or explosion."

Hans Weber said it's possible there was a problem with one of the lithium ion batteries on the Dreamliner in Boston, but he added, "If this was a problem with the lithium ion batteries, that would be a first."


http://www.cnbc.com/id/100364588
Boeing said it traced the fire to a battery in the planes auxiliary power unit.


But planes are attended unlike bots in houses. Some have Halon fire suppression systems. As long as appliance batteries are from premium brands, computer companies etc., chances are low, but all risks to houses are low. Already we're advised not to use off brand batteries in laptops and phones. There are tornados here every year, but will your house be the single one they take? It's just a special case, houses.

Lets here what Kobold says. Germans also push auto technology with no speed limit autobahns everyone likes -- maybe just their style. Everything has risks of some sort, so could be over blown. There just seem to be perfectly good Nickel batteries for vacuums, so why bother? Or always be at home when using LiOn (or have the staff at home; the buttler can handle it between wine decantings).

Oh, and forgot: no need to pile this on top of poor charger contact melting plastic. There's enough to handle already.
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Re: Neato Xv-25 battery upgrade

Postby Wing Nut » January 12th, 2013, 3:58 am

mfortuna wrote:On the flip side the Neato is smart enough to return to base, recharge, and resume. It is still going to run the same amount of time to clean, but cleaning will get spread across multiple charge cycles.

Trouble is, recent battery and charger 'upgrades' have resulted in shortened run times, but our Neatos are still encumbered with a 3 run limit per cleaning sortie. if you have a large house, when your Neato returns after the 3rd run that's it - it stops for good - and the last rooms don't get vacuumed unless you carry it (and the dock?) down the far end of the house later after it's recharged.

I can't help but think my old (and thankfully reliable!) XV-11, with its old tech battery, isn't somehow more capable of, and quicker at, cleaning an entire house. Or am I missing something with these recent model 'updates'?
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Re: Neato Xv-25 battery upgrade

Postby mfortuna » January 12th, 2013, 9:34 am

I did not know about the 3 run limit. I wonder why the designers put that feature in.
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Re: Neato Xv-25 battery upgrade

Postby Geppo » January 12th, 2013, 11:05 am

vic7767 wrote:I replaced the stock battery pair with a 4500 mAH mod. The run times varied from 25 minutes to 55 minutes. Still had 14.5 to 15 vdc when deciding to return to base. There seem to be two issues with the short run times some owners experienced. One is the faulty battery packs. The other evidently is a firmware change within 3.0


Very interesting..... I remember the neato special guest stated that replacing the stock battery pair on XV-11 with a couple of larger capacity, will not extend run time. This seems to be confirmed by some old posts....
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=16096&p=107801&hilit=batteries#p107801
Can you please describe what brand/model of batteries did you use and where did you find them?
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Re: Neato Xv-25 battery upgrade

Postby vic7767 » January 12th, 2013, 11:14 am

Here's a URL to the batteries used in the mod: http://www.onlybatteries.com/showitem.a ... cat1=&uid=
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Re: Neato Xv-25 battery upgrade

Postby Wing Nut » January 12th, 2013, 4:28 pm

mfortuna wrote:I did not know about the 3 run limit. I wonder why the designers put that feature in.

I didn't know either till someone recently quoted Neato's answer to a problem they were having with a large house not getting competely vacuumed. I can only guess it's a battery heat issue - too many consecutive charge/discharges?
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Re: Neato Xv-25 battery upgrade

Postby glnc222 » January 12th, 2013, 4:47 pm

If you did more than four deep discharge runs and charges every day for thirty days you might wear the battery enough to claim a return under some retailers sales terms. Not good for business.

I get 800 sq ft on carpet in 45 minutes on the borderline of capacity on new batteries, maybe 1200 sqft hard floors, each charge, so 4800 sqft hard floors is the limit for one Neato, old software. Fading after 100 runs. Sorry the ballroom and reception hall will require another unit -- or two or three. Check quantity discounts, OEM wholesale (minimum five units).

Maybe a Transporter could be configured just to pick up the dirt, but I wouldn't risk it while present; might end up on a Klingon ship by mistake.
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