Kobold VR100 or a Neato XV-25?

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Re: Kobold VR100 or a Neato XV-25?

Postby a4refillpad » January 18th, 2013, 10:30 pm

Interesting. Is yours a rev64? I thought mine was the latest as it was sent out from vorwerk to the original owner mid december.
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Re: Kobold VR100 or a Neato XV-25?

Postby fufu » January 19th, 2013, 7:36 am

Actually it's not. I have mine since october 2011 and no issues ever since. But there are some guys in the German robot forum who got the new version end of december / beginning of january. Seems like you got one of the last ones with the old board revision...
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Re: Kobold VR100 or a Neato XV-25?

Postby a4refillpad » January 23rd, 2013, 7:26 pm

I just had a brand new replacement delivered this week and it's still also a rev 113 :(
Looks like it's only in Germany that these are updated models are being dished out. Anyway the only two things I miss on the rev64 boards are the battery backed clock and the upward inclined blower. I will attempt to fashion some way of emulating the latter by opening "Koby" at some point and putting something in to redirect the airflow upwards. I also noticed that the wheels are no longer hard black plastic but the same as the neato with soft translucent wheels.
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Re: Kobold VR100 or a Neato XV-25?

Postby glnc222 » January 23rd, 2013, 8:08 pm

Low prices here and there on some Vorwerks may be typical discounting of old models when new electronics get released, even with minor revisions. Full price retailers can't sell a mix of old and new models, and some of the best bargains occur from disposing of old inventory. Long familiar in autos of course, but TV's and such started having more frequent revisions with flat screens etc.
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Re: Kobold VR100 or a Neato XV-25?

Postby a4refillpad » January 26th, 2013, 7:50 pm

The replacement came direct from vorwerk UK BTW.
Just noticed that the vorwerk does not handle pile carpet (even medium not deep) very well with the side brush attached. It is easily removable but annoying that I would need to do so. If left attached it elevates the right hand side slightly causing a less penetrating clean from the main brush. Also a slight drag causing the bot to continually adjust itself.
While the side brush definitely makes a big difference on hard floors it has only a slight effect on carpet. Definitely better than nothing as it will move surface level debris and dust. However fluff, hair and deeper dirt is left behind.
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Re: Kobold VR100 or a Neato XV-25?

Postby fufu » January 27th, 2013, 6:19 pm

My fault. There're no Kobolds with rev 64 at the moment. They 'just' have the upward inclined blower. It seems that Vorwerk is working on an upgrade solution for those who don't have the new blower yet.
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Re: Kobold VR100 or a Neato XV-25?

Postby a4refillpad » January 27th, 2013, 7:37 pm

Hi Fufu,

You've read somewhere that they will sell the part? Looking at my neato xv25 rev64 the blower is directed upwards but not using the grill. Not 100% sure how it works but the air is redirected upwards without any frill modification unlike the honeycomb grill of the new vr100s.
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Re: Kobold VR100 or a Neato XV-25?

Postby a4refillpad » February 2nd, 2013, 8:11 am

glnc222 wrote:No detail has been seen on a fascinating claim by Kobold when introducing their Neato version: an improved vacuum fan impeller. Wonder if VR's have more suction. Need a cleaning comparison with this instead of vs Roomba.
How about taking your VR apart and showing all the parts for once? Taking apart always more fun than using -- what things are really for. Staff can take care of the rest.


Glnc222, photo attached as requested.
IMG_20130202_101555.jpg
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Re: Kobold VR100 or a Neato XV-25?

Postby glnc222 » February 2nd, 2013, 1:01 pm

Compare to XV-11 fan: 12v vs 14.2v, so a different motor, but same model no., same maker. Whether the impeller is different can't tell. Makes sense a vacuum cleaner company like Kobold would know something about fan motors.
Attachments
fanmotor2.jpg
XV-11 fan motor 2011
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Re: Kobold VR100 or a Neato XV-25?

Postby a4refillpad » February 2nd, 2013, 1:38 pm

Running the same fan at a higher voltage will make it go faster or vice versa. Long known method used in PCs to control fan speed. I would suggest this being the reason Kobold making statements regarding increased suction power by a certain percentage. I have to admit seeing a lot less hair and debris in the VR100 brush than my xv25 even though both having the same brush and filter. I wonder if this is due to the slightly increased suction?
Anyone able to post a picture of a rev 64 fan to compare voltage? Haven't got access to mine for the moment as it is being used elsewhere.
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Re: Kobold VR100 or a Neato XV-25?

Postby glnc222 » February 2nd, 2013, 1:50 pm

Forgot to mention the XV-11 actually uses a 15.5v supply to the motor as measured for tracking that signal to monitor operations in add-ons (varies as the battery ages, battery at 16.5v -- some semiconductor switch difference). The motor voltage spec is just a nominal figure. all sorts of 12v motors run happily on 15v, maybe wear or overheat faster. You can see the motor current over USB and get the power.
I thought Kobold said their fan was quieter or something.
I'm guessing it's really the same motor and they never got to the impellor stuff that got into an early presentation script.

Also, the motors are RPM controlled by digital signals. These are "smart", controlling the current internally.
Neato's run them at 90 per cent maximum at around 1 amp with a filter installed, up to 1.5 with open path.
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Re: Kobold VR100 or a Neato XV-25?

Postby a4refillpad » February 2nd, 2013, 2:20 pm

Definitely a different, duller sound coming out of the kobold. In fact, it is really noticeable that the wheel motors is louder than the fan noise. On the neato the fan noise and wheel motors are roughly on par. I have found the brush on the kobold trapping much less hair for some reason than the xv25. To be honest I do not know why this is.
I have also noticed the vr100 has a "flatter" air-path to the dirt bin than the neato. Seems to be better as would provide less resistance. Also a relatively simple mod for neato owners if indeed it makes a difference.

Trying to show in photo.
IMG_20130202_182939.jpg
Last edited by a4refillpad on February 2nd, 2013, 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kobold VR100 or a Neato XV-25?

Postby glnc222 » February 2nd, 2013, 2:33 pm

Lower fan noise could indeed be the impeller design, fluid turbulence is a big thing with fans -- famous on ship and submarine screws -- and Dyson appliance high tech. But they also said something about sound proofing in the unit, and the side brush motor I added was very noisy, they might have needed it for that. Some coating inside the case? Wheels are exposed so will stand out acoustically.
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Re: Kobold VR100 or a Neato XV-25?

Postby ilpirata » February 25th, 2013, 6:08 am

Hi guys,
What about the new version?
Do you know If it is being dispatched in italy?

Thanks,
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Re: Kobold VR100 or a Neato XV-25?

Postby a4refillpad » February 26th, 2013, 9:01 pm

ilpirata wrote:Hi guys,
What about the new version?
Do you know If it is being dispatched in italy?

There is very little difference in the "new" versions of the vr100. Unlike the neato's very minor incremental changes have taken place along the way. eg. the first models had hard black wheels; mine has soft rubber. The latest releases have upward facing grill. I would not wait and just get whatever is available.
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Re: Kobold VR100 or a Neato XV-25?

Postby a4refillpad » February 26th, 2013, 9:14 pm

glnc222 wrote:Compare to XV-11 fan: 12v vs 14.2v, so a different motor, but same model no., same maker. Whether the impeller is different can't tell. Makes sense a vacuum cleaner company like Kobold would know something about fan motors.


Actually don't know how I missed this first time round but the model numbers are clearly different.

VR100 = BFB1012UH DC14.2V
Neato = BCB1012UH DC12V
The one in the VR100 definitely sounds quieter but not sure what if any other differences there are.

There seems to be a significant price differential in the component parts at least shown in the below links
BFB1012UH ¥100.00 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z ... 896377861&
BCB1012UH ¥60.00 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z ... 137551641&
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Re: Kobold VR100 or a Neato XV-25?

Postby mfortuna » February 27th, 2013, 8:37 am

The 14.2V motor must be rated for a nominal voltage. The part number BFB1012UH always shows up as a 12V blower with a voltage range of 4V to 13.8V. This is probably a special blower that can take a input voltage of > 13.8V but the part number doesn't indicate that.

The 14.8 battery Li-ION battery will drop well below 14.2V total as it approaches max discharge. The minimum safe voltage is 12V (3V per cell) but I'm sure the designers don't let it drop that low. It could easily get to 13V and still have plenty of margin for docking.

A NIMH battery could start just as high and drop to 12V. So overall I don't see a major advantage to the 14.2V blower.
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Re: Kobold VR100 or a Neato XV-25?

Postby a4refillpad » February 27th, 2013, 9:13 am

On that same website you can find the same model blower labelled with 12v and sells for less.
I assume these must be different models somehow, otherwise how can the price differential be justified?
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a23 ... 5193270376
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Re: Kobold VR100 or a Neato XV-25?

Postby mfortuna » February 27th, 2013, 3:10 pm

It looks like the -BA40 an -9Q68 are a suffix to the main part number.

I found them side by side on pchub.com and the 14.2V fan costs about $9 more ($63.64 versus $54.55).

I have not found the datasheet for either.

http://www.pchub.com/uph/category/936-1 ... =20&type=0
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Re: Kobold VR100 or a Neato XV-25?

Postby a4refillpad » February 27th, 2013, 3:21 pm

Looks like vorwerk have elected to use a higher end model. Very unscientific but it sounds "duller" and the exhaust seems to have a larger volume of air but very difficult to compare as the xv21 pushes exhaust upwards.
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