Neato lithium ion battery revisited

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Re: Neato lithium ion battery revisited

Postby glnc222 » June 16th, 2016, 10:49 pm

Addendum: having the charger voltage over-shoot to the dock max 22v caused damage to a rev113 system board in my experiments with LiFePo4 batteries. Something wasn't rated for the higher voltage on the board. NiMh charging won't reach that.
Not wise to repeat such experiments if still intact, or provide proper protection. I describe a special protection on the dock circuit instead of in the pack, disconnecting the charger on over-voltage instead of the battery, back in the LiFePo4 section of this thread.
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Re: Neato lithium ion battery revisited

Postby neatj » June 16th, 2016, 10:56 pm

I am able to recover from the error by changing the batterytype to 2 or 1 while the error is present and then rebooting by pressing okay to the error.

Getlifestatlog show the error as 5993,LS_ERROR_BATTERY_MISMATCH,1,1,1,0x0000000000000001,0x0000000000000001

It starting to look like i'm going to have to get the Lithium Power packs if I want to run LiIon
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Re: Neato lithium ion battery revisited

Postby glnc222 » June 18th, 2016, 2:05 am

Perhaps the Rev113 Cruz board version of 3.2 software differs from the version supplied for newer Rev64 Binky system boards (after the side jack for charging was eliminated). v3.2 is the final version compatible with the older board, with different processor, and only 3.1 was distributed online. While the Cruz systems appears to register the SetConfig parameters, the rest of the code could be missing something. Maintenance of old system boards is hardly a high priority for the company.
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Re: Neato lithium ion battery revisited

Postby neatj » June 18th, 2016, 10:10 am

It would appear that way. I have also tried downgrading to 3.1 and 2.7 with the same results.
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Re: Neato lithium ion battery revisited

Postby glnc222 » June 18th, 2016, 12:07 pm

WSJ 6/18/2016
Sony Corp. is recalling about 1,700 Panasonic Corp. lithium-ion battery packs installed in Vaio laptops, due to overheating that may pose a fire hazard.
In March, Toshiba Corp. recalled about 91,000 Panasonic laptop battery packs in the U.S. due to fire risk.


The Lithium Power Inc./AnewPow/Boston Power Neato batteries are a safer chemistry LiNMC less prone to this problem. Computers use the lightest weight, most dense chemistry for portability in devices. Higher cost quality control compensates, along with less use unattended in homes.

The Panasonic cells used in the 8-cell French project are also LiNMC I think.
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Re: Neato lithium ion battery revisited

Postby Lewiy » June 19th, 2016, 2:00 am

It is possible that some combination of configuration parameters needed for rev113. I would try to change at the same time - ModelID, ConfigID, Serial Number, BatteryType, LDS Serial, MainBoard Vendor - on the basis of this link - https://gist.github.com/psy0rz/4430999. The result is not guaranteed.
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Re: Neato lithium ion battery revisited

Postby neatj » June 20th, 2016, 10:05 am

Lewiy wrote:It is possible that some combination of configuration parameters needed for rev113. I would try to change at the same time - ModelID, ConfigID, Serial Number, BatteryType, LDS Serial, MainBoard Vendor - on the basis of this link - https://gist.github.com/psy0rz/4430999. The result is not guaranteed.


I have tried changing ModelID and ConfigID to no avail, I'll try the rest tonight and report back.
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Re: Neato lithium ion battery revisited

Postby neatj » June 20th, 2016, 6:12 pm

I have changed all that is configurable and still get a (0005) on reboot.

getversion
Component,Major,Minor,Build
ModelID,-1,VR100,
ConfigID,1,,
Serial Number,WTD43311DD,0031360,P
Software,3,2,18755
BatteryType,3,LIION_4CELL,
BlowerType,2,BLOWER_VORWERK_REV1,
BrushSpeed,1450,,
BrushMotorType,1,BRUSH_MOTOR_ORIG,
SideBrushType,2,SIDE_BRUSH_VORWERK_REV1,
WheelPodType,1,WHEEL_POD_ORIG,
DropSensorType,1,DROP_SENSOR_ORIG,
MagSensorType,1,MAG_SENSOR_ORIG,
WallSensorType,1,WALL_SENSOR_ORIG,
Locale,1,LOCALE_USA,
LDS Software,V2.6.15295,0000000000,
LDS Serial,WTD36611AA-0050927,,
LDS CPU,F2802x/c001,,
MainBoard Vendor ID,543,,
MainBoard Serial Number,31698,,
MainBoard Version,7,1,
ChassisRev,2,,
UIPanelRev,1,,
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Re: Neato lithium ion battery revisited

Postby glnc222 » June 20th, 2016, 9:50 pm

It would be ironic were the battery type set to NiMh and the lithium battery installed (but not charged...), and the error did not occur. What exactly is detected by the mismatch message is not clear.
I presume you also used the LCD menu selection "New Battery", which resets the battery tracking data. The same thing is probably done when disconnecting the battery, not sure.
While a significant expense, when building one's own battery, an external charger to test the battery outside the Neato can be an advantage, in terms of troubleshooting.
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Re: Neato lithium ion battery revisited

Postby Fuzzylogic » September 5th, 2016, 7:42 am

I got the same error as neatj, also on a Rev113 Cruz board. No way to set the Battery Type to 3 without error 0005.

Would be nice if we could compare the Neato Cruz board to the VR100 board, to see if there are any differences.

When powering the XV-15 up with my DIY Li-ion battery packs (fully charged with external charger), the unit showed a low battery error, but this could be cleared by setting the Battery Fuel setting to 100 over the USB port.

Btw has anyone done any Neato firmware hacking?
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Re: Neato lithium ion battery revisited

Postby Lewiy » September 5th, 2016, 1:40 pm

As it turned out, there is an additional module in the VR100 (rev113) between the motherboard and lithium battery. In Neato XV11 (rev113) such module is absent. Therefore SetConfig is a necessary condition but not sufficient. Link to this post in the Russian forum - http://forum.ixbt.com/topic.cgi?id=47:11708:3254#3254
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Re: Neato lithium ion battery revisited

Postby vic7767 » September 5th, 2016, 2:21 pm

Fuzzylogic wrote:Btw has anyone done any Neato firmware hacking?
Nope, the operating system code is proprietary and can lead to legal action against firmware hackers.

There are Lithium battery packs for the Neato XV series sold by Lithium Power Inc that emulate NiMH packs that work very well with the Neato.
Roomba and Neato Mods, come visit: http://www.vic7767.com/

http://www.Robot-Doc.com/
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Re: Neato lithium ion battery revisited

Postby Fuzzylogic » September 6th, 2016, 8:21 am

Lewiy, thanks for the link.

The board connects to an unused connector (J24) on the rev 113 mainboard.
By looking at the photo's from the Russian forum, it appears to be a dual comperator (LT1017) and IC2 is probably a fixed voltage reference. So my guess is that it will measure the battery voltage , and send a stop charging signal to the mainboard, once the voltage becomes higher than 16.8 volt.

When i bridge the connector J24 with a 10k resistor, error 0005 goes away, and the Neato powers up OK.
Seems to be sensor XTemp0InC (-30 when resistor not connected, 25 when connected)

edit:

Bridge connector J24 with a 100K resistor indicates and the LithiumChargeDone status will change to '1'.
Charging is immediately stopped, and the Battery indicator set to 100%

To start charging, add a 4k7 resistor parallel to the 100K resistor, this will set the LithiumChargeEnabled to 1
The Battery indicator (FuelPercent) must be below 87% otherwise the charger will not start.
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Re: Neato lithium ion battery revisited

Postby svrl » October 3rd, 2016, 9:32 am

Hi, it's my first post to this forum.

I have a XV-25 that has rev 64 board and 3.4 firmware.

Is my Neato really support li-ion batteries? Has anyone experiments with this model and revision of board?

I've built battery packs that smiliar with french project. Also I can change battery type via Neato Control. But I saw battery voltage as 22v when device is docked and led turned red. XV-25 gives error 0002, 0003 or 0005 shortly after docking and battery voltage turns ~15v (batteries' current state is ~15v).

Looking for your kind help.
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Re: Neato lithium ion battery revisited

Postby glnc222 » October 3rd, 2016, 12:04 pm

I responded to your email.
After issuing the USB command "SetConfig BatteryType 3" verify the the setting over USB.
Turn off the Neato and reboot to insure the command is effective.
Test the charger with the regular NiMh battery before using the lithium battery. Charging should stop at 16.8v partially charged. Normally would go to 18.5v.
It is not good to have the charging voltage go to 22v. Sometimes this can damage the system board.
The high voltage can result from the lithium battery being full or the protection circuit activated.
This will happen when the BatteryType setting is not in effect.
There should be an over-voltage protection board in the lithium battery pack.
Be careful with the fire hazard of lithium batteries.
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Re: Neato lithium ion battery revisited

Postby svrl » October 3rd, 2016, 4:58 pm

I tested the protection boards that I used in my first battery pack tonight. All of them faulty, it was the problem.

My batteries are LG HE4, these batteries able to give 20A continuous discharge current. I got 8 of them but my protecion boards near to kill them. Faulty boards drained my batteries untill 0.1v. As you know it's a dangerous level for these batteries.

I built fully charged 2 of 2x18650 packs and connect them to XV-25 without protection board (for testing purposes). And change my device's ModelID to VR100:

Code: Select all
setConfig ModelID VR100


and ran batteryType command again:

Code: Select all
setConfig BatteryType 3


Neato gives me "low battery" warning when first power on. Warning is gone after "new battery" option and docking charge station. Also XV-25 seems fully charged.

Than I drained batteries 'till 14v (device show %80 in neato contol) and put the XV-25 to charge station again. Battery temps was really good after this test drive.

I connected usb cable to XV-25 and checked Sensors tab in Neato Control. Charging voltage fixed now between 16.5v to 17v.

First seconds of charging:

NC1.JPG
First seconds of charging Neato XV-25 Li-ion batteries.


Fully charged state:

NC3.JPG
Fully charged state of XV-25's Li-ion batteries


As you can clearly see in these two screenshots; ChargeVoltageInMv is ~16v when charging batteries. It's become ~22v when charging is done.

Fully charged state is ~15.9v.

I need to find new 2s protection boards :roll:

My current configuration:

Code: Select all
GetVersion
Component,Major,Minor,Build
ModelID,-1,VR100,
ConfigID,1,,
Software,3,4,24079
BatteryType,3,LIION_4CELL,
BlowerType,1,BLOWER_ORIG,
BrushSpeed,1200,,
BrushMotorType,1,BRUSH_MOTOR_ORIG,
SideBrushType,1,SIDE_BRUSH_NONE,
WheelPodType,1,WHEEL_POD_ORIG,
DropSensorType,1,DROP_SENSOR_ORIG,
MagSensorType,1,MAG_SENSOR_ORIG,
WallSensorType,1,WALL_SENSOR_ORIG,
Locale,1,LOCALE_USA,
LDS Software,V2.6.15295,0000000000,
LDS Serial,WTD32512AA-0144160,,
LDS CPU,F2802x/c001,,
MainBoard Vendor ID,543,,
MainBoard Serial Number,555,,
BootLoader Software,17225,P,p
MainBoard Software,23179,1,
MainBoard Boot,16219,
MainBoard Version,4,0,
ChassisRev,2,,
UIPanelRev,1,,


@glnc222

Thank you so much for your e-mail and entry.
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Re: Neato lithium ion battery revisited

Postby glnc222 » October 3rd, 2016, 8:27 pm

I am not sure you need to change ModelID to VR100. I understand this is merely a label without effect.
If the charging voltage goes to the maximum from the dock, 22V, the charger has not terminated properly based on voltage. The BatteryType setting does not seem to change the algorithm. This was found on the older Rev113 Cruz system boards. This should be tested with the NiMh battery before using the lithium, to be sure the algorithm is correct.
I do not have a Neato robot at this time and have not made these batteries myself. I helped the French project in locating suitable components.
With BatteryType 1 or 2 for NiMh, the charger terminates on rising temperature in thermistors, a feature of NiMh chemistry. Voltage typically goes to 18.5v, and falls to the unloaded battery around 16.5v.
Lithium does not heat up and becomes highly resistive when full at 16.8v for 4 series. The constant current charger will try to raise voltage to push through the 2 amp charging current, and produce and error message.
What are the specifications of the protection boards used in the packs?
[edit]If the protection board activates below 16.8v it will interfere with the standard lithium charging. Did you say your boards cut out at 15.9v?
Last edited by glnc222 on October 3rd, 2016, 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neato lithium ion battery revisited

Postby glnc222 » October 3rd, 2016, 8:41 pm

As I recall the change in system boards from Rev113 Cruz to Rev64 Binky occurred mid-production of the XV-21,25 models. You might want to open the case and check labels on the system board.
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Re: Neato lithium ion battery revisited

Postby glnc222 » October 3rd, 2016, 8:54 pm

When ordering protection boards note they are different for LiFePo4 and Lithium Ion. LiFePo4 has lower voltage.
The boards must also support 6 amps for running current 3-4 amps with some higher peaks unknown.
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Re: Neato lithium ion battery revisited

Postby svrl » October 4th, 2016, 2:25 am

If the charging voltage goes to the maximum from the dock, 22V, the charger has not terminated properly based on voltage. The BatteryType setting does not seem to change the algorithm.


My protection boards doesn't charge/protect batteries. ChargeVoltageInMv and BatteryVoltageInMv increased to ~22v.

But now; ChargeVoltageInMv is reduced to ~16.5v when batteries are charging and ~22v when charging is done (led turns green & battery indicator seems full).

Neato shows 100% at ~16v right now.

What are the specifications of the protection boards used in the packs?


There is no protection boards right now. Tested with directly connected batteries. I'm trying to be very craeful of course. Batteries stay disconnected while I'm away from the device.

I won't use it like this, connected like this for test them only.

When ordering protection boards note they are different for LiFePo4 and Lithium Ion. LiFePo4 has lower voltage.
The boards must also support 6 amps for running current 3-4 amps with some higher peaks unknown.


Thanks for the information. Yes my faulty boards are Li-ion ones and supports 4A current for each board.
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