Neato Tire Traction

News and information about the Neato XV-11 Robotic Vacuum. All discussion and troubleshooting questions go here.

Re: Neato Tire Traction

Postby glnc222 » September 4th, 2013, 10:48 pm

Changing Tires on Neato

[edit] July 2016: while the tread is destroyed removing from Neato wheels, a 3D printer file has been posted to make new treads which work on the bare rims. http://www.thingiverse.com/make:232141

[edit] October 2014: RobotShop.com lists Neato wheels separate from the drive assembly, $8, but says stock forthcoming.

[edit] use a thick, well fitting driver when breaking shaft screw thread lock glue, to not strip screw head.

The tread is secured crosswise by the sidewalls hooked over the rim edge, besides tight grip of crosswise slots. Sideways pressure occurs same as on a car tire, from the bot turning, changing direction, not from rotating the wheels for motion.
The tire is glued on or inherently adhesive, and gets stretched some with a very difficult removal prying and pulling off. What appeared from outside to be metal tabs were just bubbles in the attachment.

The problem with re-attachment is fitting the inside teeth into the crosswise slots with outward slanting inside edges; they do not just press in and would have to be slid somehow, probably requiring some tool. Maybe more fiddling would get it but not obvious. There is a socket with turned-in edges molded into the inside fitting around a lip all around each block of the rim. It appears the wheel is only suitable for replacement treads once the original is removed.

The bare rim is well suited to new, softer treads taking a 3/16" tread such as one layer of mounting foam tape and a layer of mousepad foam, attached with #2 1/4" wood screws, 6 around, every other block between the slots. 1/16" pilot hole. Heads protrude 3/32", half the tread thickness. Position joins on opposite sides, crazy glue edges. Maybe two adjacent screws at the join, 7th -- if problems show up in use.

tire1.jpg
Neato wheel rim and factory attached tire

tire2.jpg
pulling off the tire tread

tire3.jpg
separated rim and tire

tire4.jpg
wheel rim dimensions

tire5.jpg
repositioned tread with gaps in crosswise slots


So there are all the ways found to increase Neato wheel traction, using the original wheel or a replacement made from common pipe fittings and wood. [edit] handy RC Truck wheel found in later posts -- read on.

What is missing is any measurements of the allegedly difficult moldings or whatever the regular Neato has problems crossing. Whether 50 per cent increased traction will help in any of those would have to be tested on the individual cases.

Other Neato mods for utility links at http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=16475

[edit] a temporary rubber band fix (previous page) can be used to test the value of any traction enhancement before undertaking more difficult solutions.

[edit] For another method entirely of increasing traction, see adjusting Neato's suspension in "XV-21 Blocked by Area Rug" http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=17466
Last edited by glnc222 on July 30th, 2016, 10:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4966
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Neato Tire Traction

Postby Harmanx » March 1st, 2014, 4:01 pm

Perhaps related to this thread, my new-ish Neato vacuum got itself wedged within the narrow space of some angled pedistal-table legs. Unlike my old Roomba which seemed to know if it's spinning wheels weren't moving it in a given direction (backward, in this case, without a bumper response to indicate an obstacle), the Neato's wheels just kept spinning against the hardwood floor until the battery wore out. What I discovered when I came home from work was the Neato sitting lifeless in two fair-sized piles of it's own tire shavings.

Again, the Roomba seemed to detect resistance when moving in reverse, despite there being no bumper response in reverse. How did it know? The Neato appears to lack even the logic of "if reversing for minutes on end you must be stuck against (or wedged into) something, try something else or give up."
Attachments
photo.JPG
Surveying the damage.
Harmanx
 
Posts: 3
Joined: December 1st, 2011, 4:49 pm

Re: Neato Tire Traction

Postby vic7767 » March 1st, 2014, 4:13 pm

Harmanx wrote:Again, the Roomba seemed to detect resistance when moving in reverse, despite there being no bumper response in reverse. How did it know?


The Roomba has a front wheel stasis sensor that detects the lack of movement while the drive wheels are active and turns them off.
Roomba and Neato Mods, come visit: http://www.vic7767.com/
User avatar
vic7767
Robot Master
 
Posts: 14960
Joined: January 14th, 2006, 8:31 pm
Location: Haughton Louisiana - USA

Re: Neato Tire Traction

Postby mfortuna » March 1st, 2014, 5:42 pm

You would think the Neato seeing the exact same LIDAR measurements for a long period would trigger an error.
Mike
Reds x 3, Dirt Dog, Disco (now a parts bot), Create, Scooba 350, and Security Dawg
Evolution Mint
Neato XV-11
Shark Ion 750
User avatar
mfortuna
Robot Master
 
Posts: 5844
Joined: February 5th, 2006, 10:35 am
Location: NH

Re: Neato Tire Traction

Postby glnc222 » March 1st, 2014, 7:07 pm

My observation is Neato uses locking of the drive wheels in reverse as a substitute for a rear bumper, so if the wheels are slipping on the floor it fails to detect a rear bump. An old report was of the Neato damaging the wheels and maybe the floor when getting stuck in a kitchen. I've observed when dealing with the overhead pinch problem, the wheels can spin on carpet when stuck.

Improving the wheel traction may therefore get a better signal to the software when bumping backing up.
It's hard to improve traction on carpets, however. The sticky stuff that works there might not be so good on hard floors. Needs more research, and even factory engineering for perfection; they probably can't afford it. I notice the Scooba uses replaceable soft treads for the slippery wet conditions. The wheels are not the same size so can't help with Neato.

I also use various improvements for several situations found where it can get stuck, given how it doesn't handle that well. See top of forum page for Neato mods list.

[edit] one wrinkle is the lidar cannot see the lowest obstacles near the floor like moldings so it relies on bumpers.
Still it should check lidar for absence of movement, and apparently does not. Even if done only every ten seconds would help. Just one of a handful of loose ends in their software. No telling if they will ever be able to do more.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4966
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Neato Tire Traction

Postby Evert » November 25th, 2014, 2:10 pm

I put in a carpet in my HiFi-room, didn't work with the original tires. To low traction. But since I also drive RC-cars, I got the idea to replace the original studs, with RC-car tares. So I went to a local shop and got some tires for a HSP Hunter 1/16 Truggy for 5€. Than I simply carved off the original studs, cut the tires to the width suited:

Image

Image

Took 10 minutes. Works great.

Regards
Evert
 
Posts: 3
Joined: November 25th, 2014, 1:58 pm

Re: Neato Tire Traction

Postby vic7767 » November 25th, 2014, 2:54 pm

Very nice mod. Minimum effort, maximum gain ! :cheers:
Roomba and Neato Mods, come visit: http://www.vic7767.com/
User avatar
vic7767
Robot Master
 
Posts: 14960
Joined: January 14th, 2006, 8:31 pm
Location: Haughton Louisiana - USA

Re: Neato Tire Traction

Postby glnc222 » November 25th, 2014, 4:24 pm

I wonder if those RC wheels could be sliced thinner to the Neato width -- if needed at all -- and adapted to the Neato hub shaft somehow. There have been some Neato wheels separate from the drive assembly listed at RobotShop but out of stock. Usually the entire drive assembly must be purchased.

Wheel pics in ebay listing http://www.ebay.com/itm/HSP-85024-1-16-Scale-RC-Off-Road-Model-Car-Spare-Parts-Wheel-Rim-Tyre-Complete-/291281606837?pt=Radio_Control_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43d1bc98b5
looks adaptable same as the wheels-from-scratch previous posts above http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewtopic.php?p=117901#p117901.
--if the wheel diameter is the correct 3 inches outside tread [which it is, following post]

RCtruckwheel.jpg


[edit] For traction on carpet, the Neato drag can also be reduced instead with the cardboard "slider" mod http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=16830
Traction can also be an issue for hard height transitions needing a better wheel tread.

The wheel hub of this RC Truck tire could also be used with other materials mentioned previously.
Last edited by glnc222 on November 25th, 2014, 11:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4966
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Neato Tire Traction

Postby Evert » November 25th, 2014, 6:08 pm

Hm, my wheels looked like this, no plastic thing in the middle. The size in diameter is btw perfect, and you may use one wheel, to the both of Neato wheels, by splitting it in half.

Image

Cheers
Evert
 
Posts: 3
Joined: November 25th, 2014, 1:58 pm

Re: Neato Tire Traction

Postby mfortuna » November 25th, 2014, 8:30 pm

Now you are ready for some off-roading!
Mike
Reds x 3, Dirt Dog, Disco (now a parts bot), Create, Scooba 350, and Security Dawg
Evolution Mint
Neato XV-11
Shark Ion 750
User avatar
mfortuna
Robot Master
 
Posts: 5844
Joined: February 5th, 2006, 10:35 am
Location: NH

Re: Neato Tire Traction

Postby johnnyh » November 30th, 2014, 12:20 pm

I'm curious about how this mid works in the long run, as the exact diameter of the wheels is programmed into the bot. Used in conjunction with the wheel tach it provides precise distance traveled. This is then compared with the internal map created by the LIDAR and other sensors (bumper, cliff, etc) to place the bot within the map (eg, SLAM). If you change the wheel diameter then you throw off the bot's ability to measure distance traveled, and throw off the SLAM system. Perhaps your replacement wheels don't change the diameter?

John
User avatar
johnnyh
Robot Groupie
 
Posts: 84
Joined: September 19th, 2010, 11:18 pm

Re: Neato Tire Traction

Postby mfortuna » November 30th, 2014, 1:06 pm

If you take a close look at the mounted tire it looks very close in diameter to the original tread. It doesn't look like the sidewall was used, just the outer portion of the tire.
Mike
Reds x 3, Dirt Dog, Disco (now a parts bot), Create, Scooba 350, and Security Dawg
Evolution Mint
Neato XV-11
Shark Ion 750
User avatar
mfortuna
Robot Master
 
Posts: 5844
Joined: February 5th, 2006, 10:35 am
Location: NH

Re: Neato Tire Traction

Postby vic7767 » November 30th, 2014, 1:59 pm

I'm also pretty sure that NeatoRobotics has taken into consideration the fact that there will be a large fudge factor involved in reading tachometer reports from the wheels and some slipping of the wheels during a cleaning run is expected.

Modified wheels for traction may not be able to make a large impact on traveled distance since the wheel diameter must remain about the same. Increased diameter larger than stock will prevent the wheel from making clearance with the rest of the wheel assembly.
Roomba and Neato Mods, come visit: http://www.vic7767.com/
User avatar
vic7767
Robot Master
 
Posts: 14960
Joined: January 14th, 2006, 8:31 pm
Location: Haughton Louisiana - USA

Re: Neato Tire Traction

Postby JEfromCanada » December 1st, 2014, 4:02 pm

vic7767 wrote:I'm also pretty sure that NeatoRobotics has taken into consideration the fact that there will be a large fudge factor involved in reading tachometer reports from the wheels and some slipping of the wheels during a cleaning run is expected.


Plus, I imagine there are changes made to the calculations based on recurring lidar readings updated often.
Current robots:
Roomba Discovery 4210 (R.I.P. - Freecycled)
Roomba 560 (retired)
Neato XV-11 SW version 3.1.17844, LDS version 2.6.15295, with Pet Brush and Vic's filter (sold)
Neato Botvac 80 SW version 1.1.97, LDS version 2.6.15295, Board SW version 22753
JEfromCanada
Robot Addict
 
Posts: 676
Joined: November 13th, 2007, 5:16 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Neato Tire Traction

Postby glnc222 » December 1st, 2014, 4:40 pm

Plus, I imagine there are changes made to the calculations based on recurring lidar readings updated often.


Doubt that given how it does not detect stuck with wheels spinning. But there is slippage in the wheels and direction changes requiring allowances already. The standard guidance method is described as statistical, probability of location, fancy math. Maybe why you don't see amateur reproductions of the firmware despite access to the sensors.
The wheels are also very close to the correct diameter, and the original wheels can wear over time.
Ordered wheels to test and try the rims supplied, save the originals. A few weeks China post.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4966
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Neato Tire Traction

Postby glnc222 » December 7th, 2014, 7:39 pm

Model Truck Tires Analyzed

Measurements do not identify any greater friction provided by the 1/16 scale "off road" model truck tires. The improvement reported for a carpet problem could depend on the particular carpet and condition of the Neato tread replaced.

Measurements were taken by a different method than previously posted. Wheels run on the Neato measure the net traction available over the drag produced, with both wheel friction and drag varied with the type of surface. Measures below show only the friction supplied by a single wheel dragged on the surface, under the three pound weight Neato's press on each wheel when running flat on the floor. (Neato's nine pound weight is divided both left and right, and between the front and rear rollers as well as the drive wheels; see http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewtopic.php?p=120376#p120376). There is no easily observed difference between the static and dynamic friction.

The new measures repeat the same conclusion found before, that traction can be increased on hard surfaces with mouse pad material, and only special silicone formulation for holding carpets improves traction on carpet. Reducing drag with the carpet slider mod is the other alternative found useful http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=16830.

It appears that the knobby surface of the truck tire reduces the contact area to the ends of knobs, reducing friction. The knobs do not grip into the carpet here at least in any significant way, like sharp spikes might, similar to studded snow tires. The mouse pad material deforms to increase the contact area.

Pounds friction
................ Truck Tire ... Original Tire ... Mouse Pad
------------ ... -------------- ... ------------- ... ------------
Low Pile Carpet 4.5 lbs ........... 5.2 ........... 4.5
Bath Rug ....... 5.5 ............... 5.4 ........... 4.0
Vinyl Floor ...... 2.5 .............. 2.7 ........... 3.5
Laminate ....... 1.8 .............. 2.6 ........... 3.0
Ceramic Tile ... 2.2 ............... 2.7 ........... 3.5

There is some possibility that the model truck tread without its normal sidewall and retaining flange of its rim, can be slowly pushed off the Neato rim stripped of its usual tread fastened into slots on the rim. This was the problem with rubber bands fitted over the entire Neato wheel and tread. Should this problem arise glue may work on the plastic rim compared to the silicone Neato tread surface, and screws can be put into the rim, recessed in the rubber.

Model Truck Tire Rims for Wheels

Separate Neato wheels have started to appear on ebay, but the wheels used to be sold only as part of the entire drive assembly.

The truck rim, cut to the half inch width of Neato wheels, could be used to make Neato rims. The truck rim is narrower than the Neato wheel:

rim3.JPG
Neato and model truck rims


The gap could be filled in with layers of dense foam mounting tape. The rim might not work on a Botvac which appears to have a wider drive part fitting inside the rim.

The truck rim has a hex fitting for a drive shaft. A 1/4 in. hex nut (3/16 in. thick) will fit in this hex slot a little loose; a few layers of paper masking tape provides a tight fit. The flat part of the Neato axle is 1/4", so the threads can be drilled out with a 1/4 in. bit, and the hex nut and plastic rim can be filed out to the 5/16" width of the Neato axle, taking care not to expand the 1/4 in. width fitting the flat part.

rim1.JPG
hex nut in model truck rim mounting


The outside face of the truck rim is indented and can be filled out to the edge, and the length of the Neato axle fitting, with a 1/8 in. thick 5/16" nylon washer (or a stack of three metal flat washers).

rim2.JPG


On XV models the axle screw head goes on top of this washer. The Botvac has moved the screw to the opposite, drive side assembly side, and the axle appears integral to the wheel. I guess the preformed flange on the other end of the shaft could be under the disk wheel cover on the Botvac wheel, but I have not opened it, as there are no replacement parts yet available. The axle might be different as well.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4966
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Neato Tire Traction

Postby XeCutor » September 30th, 2015, 7:17 am

Hope nobody minds that I revive an old thread. I found this and thought it'd be a great idea to use mouse pads as tire material but I didn't want to sacrifice my stock wheels for experiments and I didn't want to start fabricating anything out of wood or similar. Enter my new 3D printer!

I've designed a replacement for the stock hubs designed to be clad in mouse pad material (or whatever else you can come up with).

Available here:
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1037148
XeCutor
 
Posts: 2
Joined: September 30th, 2015, 7:13 am

Re: Neato Tire Traction

Postby vic7767 » September 30th, 2015, 9:17 am

Nice work !
Roomba and Neato Mods, come visit: http://www.vic7767.com/
User avatar
vic7767
Robot Master
 
Posts: 14960
Joined: January 14th, 2006, 8:31 pm
Location: Haughton Louisiana - USA

Re: Neato Tire Traction

Postby glnc222 » September 30th, 2015, 1:38 pm

XV wheel tread http://www.thingiverse.com/make:232141

Great demonstration of the 3D printer! I will post the link in other forums.
If interested in other projects, the Botvac has a redesigned wheel which could use XV wheels were there a hub adapter.
[edit] wrong. Botvac wheel is geared. May have a more replaceable tread however, studs instead of slots gripping. Not tried.

Image

The Botvac has the same size wheel but replaces the heavy metal drive shaft with an integral plastic shaft fastened with a long sheet metal screw put in through the side opposite where the XV screw goes, that is on the motor arm instead of on the wheel. They seem to have found metal parts an unnecessary expense. Unlike the XV there are as yet no replacement wheels sold for the Botvac.

[edit] Another way to increase traction might be changing the tension of the Neato suspension springs to shift the weight balance (Roomba's get a larger portion of the unit weight onto the wheels, via a different position of the suspension pivot in front of the wheels, vs Neato behind the wheels). A long discussion and experiment; more work needed (and maybe a computer model of all the forces) http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewtopic.php?p=120462#p120462
Last edited by glnc222 on July 29th, 2016, 1:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4966
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Neato Tire Traction

Postby XeCutor » September 30th, 2015, 4:33 pm

I don't have a Botvac (yet) so I've got little motivation to try to tinker with wheels for it right now, have way too many other things on my hands. If the XV wheels fit provided there's a shaft and that the XV shafts fit, there happens to be a drive shaft (not my design!) on thingiverse already:
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:393352
I've not tried it as my stock metal axles serve me just fine.

As long as there are exact measurements to go by though, designing a shaft or even a wheel with shaft built into it should be very straight forward.
XeCutor
 
Posts: 2
Joined: September 30th, 2015, 7:13 am

PreviousNext

Return to Neato Robotics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 427cu, KeldBroe, lanchez, rob111gb and 302 guests