XV Series vs Botvac - one person's thoughts

[johnnyh]

I wrote the following on the firmware 3.4 thread, but perhaps it might be of more use if it was in its own thread...


Well, I can only speak from personal experience, but I was one of the early adopters of the first iteration of XV-11, over the years have owned four XV series units (three warranty replacements and the Signature series unit I bought when the warranty ran out) and my current Botvac. So I've had a LOT of time with these machines.

First of all, right out of the box my Botvac didn't work - had a bad bumper (stuck) switch due to poor (thin) plastic bumper design. It was promptly replaced.

I have a 2,000 sq ft loft - with many challenges from thick rugs, to mission style chairs that have a slope in the underside (i.e. a perfect overhead pinch trap), to a closet filled with dive gear, to a Harley in the living room. I also have a wife, two cats and a dog.

Okay - so here's my experience.

Botvac uses an entirely new OS - it's better at navigation, better at pose determination, better at determining when the wheels are spinning, better at base location, just better in general. Meaning, where as the four XV units would have about a 50% chance of finishing a cleaning mission (meaning returning to base, recharging, going back out, etc), the Botvac almost never fails. it's something like 95% success. And keep in mind, I have many years and four XV units for comparison - spanning all iterations of firmware.

Botvac is overall much quieter - my wife works from home and she can tolerate it running, where she couldn't with the XVs (both running the pet brush).

Bootvac has a far better battery tech. With the XVs, they all took three charge cycles to d entire place, if at all. Usually the unit wouldn't make it home and therefore would never finish. The botvac handily does it in less than two. Always. And that was best case with the XVs - as the battery in the XVs would start moderate, get better in a week or so, then would start to degrade over time (and yes, I've also purchased replacement batteries for the XVs)

Botvac has a MUCH better bearing system. I'm an engineer by education. I've fully disassembled the XVs to deal with hair in the beater brush motor, to deal with spring issues, to deal with scanner issues, to deal with bumper issues, etc. The XVs were a pain to clean the brush as you had to fiddle with the belt. The Botvac is literally a snap. So before every run I pop out the beater brush, pull off the single end bearing and remove the small amount of hair wound between bearing and brush. I only did this on the XVs when absolutely necessary - and there were two bearings (and yes - I've purchased new bearings for the XV in the past).

Botvac has a side brush - even on carpet it helps (See video on this forum for proof). It loves to chuck this brush under my motorcycle from time to time, but it's magnetic so no issues to pop it back on.

The suction on the Botvac is definitely much better - as can be demonstrated by both the amount of air ducking out of the unit as well as the amount of material found in the dustbin.

Even the button placement is better on the Botvac.

Finally, due to the new OS (and I've posted information about the new real time OS they put in the Botvac on this forum already), future updates are going to be handled much better than the OS in the XV series.

I just wish they were making the German version with the lidar bumper sensors, sonar rangefinders in the front bumper and repositioned side brush - that unit looks like its the best of all worlds...

But to summarize, again in my experience, there is no comparison between the XV series and the Botvac. The Botvac is exactly what it is supposed to be - the next generation - and is vastly superior.

John

John Hanzl
Author, action / adventure novel, Out of Hell's Kitchen
www.johnhanzl.com

[davidelewis]

Thanks for all the details. When one of my two Neato XV series robots "dies", I'll be replacing it with a Botvac. I see that Costco in Canada is now selling the Botvac 65:
http://www.costco.ca/Neato-Botvac-65-Pe ... 30575.html

Am I correct that the Botvac 65 is the same as the Botvac 85 model - but with four standard filters rather than the "high efficiency" filters.

[glnc222]

it's better at navigation, better at pose determination, better at determining when the wheels are spinning, better at base location, just better in general.

A very intriguing statement (so is the book, which I have but not read yet). I am curious what "pose determination" is, which sounds like something taught at old fashioned finishing schools. Nothing like having an elegant vacuum robot.

"Determining when the wheels are spinning" is interesting because there has long been what I consider a serious defect in the XV programming, serious in causing damage (to floors, not just the Neato) instead of just poor performance, of spinning the wheels when the unit is stuck (especially bad when happening on hard floors).

[edit]wheel spinning not fixed in firmware -- test below http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewto ... 57#p127557

The XV system appears to detect obstacles partly by monitoring blockage of the wheels besides the contact bumper and lidar, because some obstacles are below the lidar and below the bumper (not to mention lack of a rear bumper). It works pretty good on some low height transitions here, triggering alternate attack angles etc. This creates vulnerability when the wheels slip on a surface (as they can on such simple things as metal carpet edge moldings). I am wondering whether improvement observed in "determining when the wheels are spinning" has anything to do with this.

Neato Robotics appears to have concentrated on internal construction and engineering details more than the strategies followed by the robot interacting with the environment. The "corner cleaver" behavior enhancement for more intenstive maneuvering at corners in v3.1 was one case of improving interaction; another was docking very slowly to insure contact and keep from knocking over the base. Whatever else there is has escaped notice.

[johnnyh]

'Pose' is the position of a robot at a given time within the robots map. Take a robot with fixed map in its memory and that has no ability to sense it's environment. It just knows it always starts in the exact same place in the map. It uses the tachometers in its wheels to measure rotation of each wheel. Know the diameter of the wheel and you know the distance travelled and / or amount of the robots rotation (one wheel stopped, other rotating). Therefore robot can update its pose within the map. However there's always some finite amount of wheel slippage - and sometimes a lot of slippage, say when trying to climb onto a rug. This means the robot 'thinks' it's moving but it's really not. So the pose is corrupted and the robot isn't where it thinks it is. Add in sensors such as bumpers and a LIDAR and it can compare where it thinks it is within the map to what it 'sees' with its sensors. It can adjust its pose, correct it, but it's a very difficult job the engineers at Neato keep on plugging away at. The new real time OS found in the botvac has assisted in allowing this type of processing to occur.

For a bit on wheel slippage and pose determination with SLAM, check out this:

http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs-wm/6313.pdf

[Gordon]

'Pose' is the position of a robot at a given time within the robots map. ...

Just curious here... I was as much mystified by your use (and the referent Korean author's use) of the word "pose"--to mean real time position of a robot--as glnc222 was! So, I ask: In your wide readings on the matters of robot-navigation have you found the misuse of pose to be rampant?

I say 'misuse' because these floor cleaning robots have only a very limited ability (rotation about the vertical, wherever its horizontal position is) to "pose".

[hal9000]

Not sure about your reference to misuse, but pose in this sense is a technical term widely used in probabilistic robotics literature as well as in computer vision:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pose_(computer_vision)

[Gordon]

Not sure about your reference to misuse, but pose in this sense is a technical term widely used in probabilistic robotics literature as well as in computer vision:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pose_(computer_vision)

I do appreciate the 'education', hal, and now find the word is more acceptable (to me) in the fields that you mention. Further, I can easily imagine applicability of the word to robots that maneuver on multiple legs, say insect-like robots, or Asimov, are capable of striking a pose, so to speak; however, I still think that floor cleaning 'robots' are able to only strike a 'pose' that can be simply stated in terms of instantaneous x,y coordinates on a plane surface, coupled with an instantaneous heading vector along that plane. I just can't grasp that as having the same complexity as mathematically describing a pose.

[davidelewis]

A broad definition of "pose" would be how something is oriented within its environment. This could equally apply to a person, a mannequin or a self navigating robot.

Getting this topic back on track... Does anyone know if the Botvac is less likely to "spin its wheels" than the XV series when the turret (with the LIDAR) gets caught when going under furniture? The treads on my XV series have worn down a lot from getting caught beneath my dishwasher when the door is open almost to the floor.

[glnc222]

I may be able to test that beginning of next month having found a suitably priced BotVac still in transit.

The case reminds me of the fact these devices need to be observed when first run to note any traps which exist in the premises, as there are a number of possible traps. (Maybe there should be a book: Rules For Robots -- using them, that is). Also my oldest modification, for over-head pinch traps (see mods list top main page), might prevent this trap with the dishwasher (much cheaper than a botVac). Not to mention, having observed the trap in the first run, one could close the dishwasher...
I was also under the impression kitchens need to be wet cleaned, but I'm not much of a housekeeper. Here anyway, it seems a waste of run time to let it into the kitchen.

[mfortuna]

The kitchen gets as much debris and pet hair as any other room in my house. It needs to be dry cleaned before it can be wet cleaned.

[PythonNF]

Costco Canada has the BotVac 65 going on sale December 1 for $350. I don't know which model this is equivalent to, but it has a blue turret cover, combo brush and 4 bonus filters. Seems like a great deal....I'll be getting one!!

[davidelewis]

Costco Canada has the BotVac 65 going on sale December 1 for $350. I don't know which model this is equivalent to, but it has a blue turret cover, combo brush and 4 bonus filters. Seems like a great deal....I'll be getting one!!

Good to know! From what I can tell, the Botvac 65 is the same as the Botvac 85 model - but with four standard filters rather than the "high efficiency" filters.

[JEfromCanada]

Costco Canada has the BotVac 65 going on sale December 1 for $350. I don't know which model this is equivalent to, but it has a blue turret cover, combo brush and 4 bonus filters. Seems like a great deal....I'll be getting one!!

You know, I never look through that Costco magazine they send me... hadn't even cracked the plastic until I saw your post. This is awesome news! Sale goes on until December 14th.

[glnc222]

Is Neato Robotics $50 rebate through Dec.31 a further discount on that price, or is the price after rebate?

[davidelewis]

Is Neato Robotics $50 rebate through Dec.31 a further discount on that price, or is the price after rebate?

I don't think so, as the rebate offer is for the 70e, 75, 80 and 85 models. The Costco model is the 65 model. (By offering a different model number, Costco appears less likely to be undercutting other retailers. Hence the XV-14 instead of the XV-15, etc.)

[JEfromCanada]

This is awesome news! Sale goes on until December 14th.

I've purchased from RobotShop in the past to get their 5-year warranty. But, in this case, the premium paid to get the unit from RobotShop may not be worth the difference in price. They sell the model 80 for $550 (although it qualifies for the $50 Visa Gift Card). The specs for the model 80 don't seem as good as the Costco model 65's specs. But, Costco is only offering a 1-year warranty. Don't know if their add-on warranty is available for Neato's.

[davidelewis]

But, Costco is only offering a 1-year warranty. Don't know if their add-on warranty is available for Neato's.

A couple of years ago, I convinced a coworker to get an XV-14 from Costco (online) in Canada. The LCD screen "died" after about 16 months (out of warranty). He took is back to the local Costco and got a full refund. He then purchased a replacement Neato from Costco!

[glnc222]

First thing needed before unpacking a BotVac is move the bumper in and out all sides and insure the switches make audible clicks. Packaging I've seen (molded paper tray) depresses the bumper and randomly damages some of the new plastic actuators just from storage, or some material defect, unknown. Supposedly fixed, but may vary with stock. If any switch is bad it can be returned not unpacked; no need to take out of the clear plastic bag. [edit] the vulnerable switches are the two on the front, opposite sides.
[edit] packaging fix shown http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewto ... 14#p127214

[glnc222]

Another Person's Experience -- Bargain BotVac

purchase
Bought November 2014 at deep discount from drop shipper for Neato Robotics SmartCLS LLC, doing business as SmartAccessoryNation http://smartaccessorynation.com/ on their website and Ebay, at same price.
$300 Botvac 70e after current factory $50 rebate for the holiday season, shipping included and tax not charged (Amazon now collects sales taxes). No telling how supplies will last on this deal. This 70e bundle includes only the blade brush which I use anyway on wall-to-wall carpet. The one filter is all I need to make my own (see http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewto ... 05#p119605). The combo brush has been listed several major stores $40 but is now out of stock; I expect it to be available in future (never know when might move to different flooring).

I do not recommend Ebay for this as Ebay's standard return policy used appears to be for unopened equipment. I presume testing a vacuum makes it used. The return period is also only 14 days there. Payment with PayPal seemed to simplify the book keeping; the PayPal records were used for the rebate, though it will be some time before those are paid out. This dealer has only now entered the complete unit market previously dealing in accessories only. They are in the rebate supplier list (as smartcls) but not shown in the "where to buy" section of the factory website, which is probably limited to major retailers.

As a deep discounting drop shipper, with Neato Robotics fulfilling orders from its warehouses, returns are at customer expense, and it is best to plan on owning one and handling replacements under warranty. Contact is with factory service, not the dealer. My shipment had old packaging pinching the front bumper and had one of the stuck switches reported http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewto ... 20&t=18026
The factory promptly shipped a replacement with new packaging and a working unit. I expect it is too expensive to go back and redo all older packages, possibly sealed in China, and only some units in old packaging may have suffered this damage. Whether inherent in the plastic material or some variation in the material is unknown.

[edit] Later rec'vd from SmartCls:

I have broadened our return policy on the website and want to assure you that we will take care of all customers that shop at http://www.smartaccessorynation.com . We of course want to steer them away from a return if Neato's replacement policy will better serve their needs, but in the event that they would no longer like or need the robot, we will happily take it back for a full refund within 14 days of receipt. Even then, since we are a small distributor we always err on the side of our customers. We know our average customer is trying to make their life easier, not more complicated and if it means we need to bite the bullet, we will. We want to offer our customers an easy buying experience that exceeds that of the large retailers.

The terms of warranty replacement officially require customer coverage of shipping one way, but the policy seems to be relaxed in some instances, perhaps for unused units reported immediately on delivery. No telling what other's experience may be. I recommend dealing with the factory customer service via text chat, to speed entering serial no.s etc., keeping records and promoting concise efficient transactions. Never discuss general complaints with customer service agents who are there only to record certain orders and have no connection to management. They are not bar tenders...

Performance

The Botvac noise level is subjectively a bit louder than the XV whatever the Decibel readings say -- at least an old XV. The wheel drive has a higher pitch more prominent in hearing, possibly due to the switch to more durable metal gears from plastic introduced in the Signature line. The blade brush motor at least sounds louder, even though the vacuum fan makes much less noise. Perhaps running the helical combo brush it is quieter, as are the XV models with that especially on hard floors where the flat blade brush is extremely noisy.
More noise may mean more thorough cleaning...

Run time on carpet was similar to the XV around 65 minutes, which probably means 90 minutes on hard floors, just the original specification for XV's. It may cover a larger area, however, because of the wider brush. It did complete the area here maybe 10 per cent faster, though this is on high drag carpet.

[edit] Watching run it looks like a substantial over-lap at least 1/3 of the wider intake is used in passes, which may allocate the expanded brush to more intense cleaning more than increasing the area covered, with only a ten per cent reduction in time observed. Just the ticket. And as elsewhere posted, the fan efficiency has increased to match the wider intake and filter area, with even higher air flow rates than the XV line.

A carpet slider mod for slick textile was used the same as needed on the XV, though comparison without that has not been made; the carpet consistency varies over time so not worth the trouble (this mod at http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewto ... 20&t=16475). The battery condition might improve but I would not count on it, with the energy capacity very similar to XV.

The BotVac climbs obstacles better than the XV, which was having trouble at one spot the Botvac did not. The sides of the brush guard appear to be broader and flat surfaced, and made to ramp up obstacles more.

Nav failure
Two back to back runs, without the dock, were made to get the full time, and there was a nav failure in the second run. It stopped with a message "please wait while examining surroundings" or some such. This was next to a dark obstruction involving climbing as well, and could be accidental, though never a problem with the XV. The exact approach could matter for some borderline condition. There have always been occasional glitches. In this case the unit started its mapping over again from that point -- completely losing its vaunted "pose determination" -- repeated the perimeter circle, and when done thought the starting point was under a cabinet out of the way. Will have to do more trials to see if repeats, needed anyway to condition the battery. It seems pretty good after only a few hours initial charge, but why not? [edit] Full usual run completed with docking ten per cent faster, all in good order.

The funniest thing about the Botvac is a very noisy and repeating alarm when removing the bin, with a menu option supposedly to turn it off (or does it? something about bin full, not removed). They must have lot of users trying to run without putting in the bin. The Botvac USB port is covered by the bin so the option is needed for that. XV's have a much softer alarm which can be ignored, but not this screamer.

Extraction is hard to judge here with filtered air and slow dirt accumulation. It was at least not less than typical with the XV.

The additional features such as the side brush, larger bin and expanded area coverage, and more advanced components and construction, cannot be evaluated here except in general terms. The old unit needs replacement at some point. I am impressed (in my ignorance of engineering), with the simplified case design seemingly eliminating various small parts and being generally stronger, and easier to assemble (lowering costs -- just in case of an IPO in future...). The hefty wheel drive mounting instead of the old pivot axle especially, and eliminating those long tight extension springs.

Reducing the fan noise is impressive. Might be from mounting the fan with less direct contact to the outer case, I do not know. There was some difference in the Vorwerk original fan I gather, so could be in the fan itself. Interesting that when temporarilly shutting off cleaning in difficult maneuvering situations, it shuts the fan off as well as the brush ([edit] or I don't hear it over background noise), while the XV would only shut the brush, taking a long time to rev up the fan. Suggests a new model fan.

[glnc222]

As the BotVac is working, the XV-11 has been sold for $59. Only room for one vacuum. Like the Highlander, "there can be only one..."