Help with Neato D 80 - not charging anymore

News and information about the Neato XV-11 Robotic Vacuum. All discussion and troubleshooting questions go here.

Help with Neato D 80 - not charging anymore

Postby MrGT » November 29th, 2017, 4:18 pm

Hello. I need your help neato support failed to help) . I bought a neato D 80 about 1 year ago the problem is that the robot is not charging anymore it blinks amber then sometimes It stays gives error 0008 .
I have bought a new battery , but still the same story (did not find original one) .
I have checked the connector and termister with multimeter and its ok.
I have put out the battery from robot and charged it with other
external charger , then put it back the battery was charged(about
13.8v-14v) but neato shows again low battery .. so I have connected
robot to PC with neatoControler program and saw that the robot thinks the Fuel is 19% so I have set SetFuelGauge to 100%
.. Then robot could run one cleaning cycle (nevertheless it shows low
battery on it's display) , but when he finished the job and came back to station again main charger could not
charge it .
After charging on it's base it always shows fuel 14 or 19 percent.

Why Neato things that Fuel is 19 even when I put charged battery and
set new Battery from neato menu.
Please help me to understand what is wrong with it.
One more interesting thing that when I put the robot on it's charger
and connect to pc , I can see that the Ext Voltage is irregular from
the charger it can be 10v,11v, 15v, 20v but when I measure the
voltage on charger out with multimeter the power is stabil about
18-19v.
Attachments
neatoLog.txt
(3.45 KiB) Downloaded 12 times
Last edited by MrGT on December 6th, 2017, 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
MrGT
 
Posts: 7
Joined: November 29th, 2017, 4:01 pm

Re: Help with Neato D 80 - not charging anymore

Postby glnc222 » November 29th, 2017, 9:55 pm

Unstable external dock voltage inconsistent with metered plate voltage suggests a defect in the system board charging system, but the circuits have not been traced (more is known of the XV model circuit). There are several functions and components, so the whole board needs replacement. The Botvac is more advanced than the XV models in using a Maxim IC at position U4 for calculating the Fuel Gauge, integrating current x time, MAX14047, which one user replaced to fix a problem. It has a serial I2C interface to the main cpu. I don't see how that could be involved with the dock voltage. The Fuel Gauge report suggests it is correctly sensing failure of the battery to receive charging current. The dock senses connection to the robot to engage charging power only when needed, with a power management IC in the dock -- the meter measurements must be made while the bot is on the dock.

Ideally another dock would be tried, or the same dock on another bot, to verify the dock is not broken.

The charger runs in orange light mode until it has delivered about a 1ah charge to the battery or the voltage goes to a full level (and temperature rises per the NiMh chemistry). A defective thermistor connection can interfere with charging (an open circuit reads cold temp -- temp shown over USB). There may be no charging current or it is not being measured.
The charging circuit includes a variable switching power supply or buck voltage converter stepping down the dock voltage to that needed to maintain constant 2 amp charging current, while the battery voltage slowly rises. The charger applies a voltage 1-2v higher than the disconnected battery voltage to deliver charge. The battery slowly falls to normal after the charging current ceases. Defects in this circuit could prevent applying a useful charging voltage to the battery. Measuring battery voltage with a meter while charging might show whether the charger is working.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4617
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Help with Neato D 80 - not charging anymore

Postby MrGT » November 30th, 2017, 4:28 pm

Hi. Thanks for your deep answer.
Unfortunately there is not way for me to find other Neato charger or robot.
It would be great if you could help me to understand which of 3 parts is broken.
Neato board ,the charger or the battery.
I have tried the measurements you suggest .I have installed the old battery attached with 2 wires connected to multimeter .The battery was not used about 1 months so it was discharged about 10v.
When I put neato on its base the voltage started raising about to from 14v several minutes and the charger out was 18-19v stable .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcJ-AuLTeno
Then the voltage started falling 13 , 12 , 10 .. I have measured the charger out it was not stable and was jumping from 9v to 18v. Finally this unstable voltage started discharging the battery instead of charging and it fall to 8v.When I turned off the charger the battery voltage stared raising about to 11.8v-12v .
I am programmer and I am not good in hardware, can you tell me who controls the charger voltage? Robot board or charger itself ?
I have checked diodes on the charger board , and one of them D4 is in doubt . It shows 92 ohm both side .The other diodes are about 600ohm one side opened. So can it be the reason of problems or I should remove the diode from the board then check? Thanks. Image
MrGT
 
Posts: 7
Joined: November 29th, 2017, 4:01 pm

Re: Help with Neato D 80 - not charging anymore

Postby glnc222 » December 1st, 2017, 1:06 am

It is hard to see a specific dock failure in the observations reported, though all the details of the system are not known. It takes an expert engineer (not me) to reverse engineer the circuits, recognize all the parts and how such systems are built. One senior engineer no longer available here did diagram the XV model charging circuits at thread http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=20223
This might suggest what to look for on the Botvac board, but needs expertise in such hardware.

It was also observed that the XV dock was revised with a possible sharing of parts for the charger voltage converter between the bot and the dock, adding an inductor typical of such things to the dock board. The Botvac dock is more revised integrating the switching power supply with the dock circuits replacing separate power bricks.
Dock failures are fairly rare and the dock is simple compared to the bot, more durable. It could be expected that dock failures would not produce charging current at all.

First thing I suggest is replacing what appears to be a faulty diode you found on the system board. Various diodes in Neato's have been replaced before, sometimes for insufficient heat sinking damage, below spec ratings etc.

Then a new system board may be needed. These are usually obtained from other Botvac's or on ebay if one happens to be available. Expensive, as contains a large part of the robot value, everything on one board. Component level analysis is just not available. Member Medtech in Russia does Neato repairs and might know something, so I have pointed out this thread by PM in case he has any interest, nothing guaranteed.

During charging of NiMh the temperature must be observed over USB. Charging is terminated when temperature rises faster than 1C/minute, from NiMh chemistry when full -- diverting charging current into heat dissipation (compared to lithium cells which just raise resistance, and are switched to constant voltage charging at a full level voltage -- or just terminated at the max voltage). The battery temperature will rise several degrees C. Faulty voltage and current sensing could interfere with everything.
Perhaps the charger voltage falls off because the battery has heated up, and the charger is stopping for it to cool off. After terminating on temperature rise, the NiMh charger will perform a low current follow on timed topping-off charging cycle. NiMh very messy charging compared to lithium.
If the charger stops delivering current without a rise in temperature, there is definitely a malfunction.

14v on the battery when charging sounds typical of a nearly full battery, maximum this will go. Heating should be observed at that level, assuming the battery is good. The higher dock voltage is needed to operate the buck voltage converter constant current regulator, analogous to linear voltage regulator components.

The feature of a worn out battery is loss of capacity so that charging and discharging is faster than normal; the maximum voltage remains the same.

Anytime the battery is disconnected, Neato software will perform a calibration charging cycle when reconnected, so the system will know the battery is charged before cleaning. The cycle will be short, a few minutes, when the battery is already full. Presumably it determines this from the battery voltage and rapid heating.

Sorry can't be of more help. Not that many engineers fiddling with broken Botvac's.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4617
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Help with Neato D 80 - not charging anymore

Postby Medtech » December 1st, 2017, 1:14 am

for the analysis, you need to run the getcharger command at a period of 1 second, turn off the testmode and put the robot on charge, you need a log record for at least 3 minutes. The log should be archived and not published in an open form - this clogs the forum and worsens readability.
Thank you GOOGLE translator for the freedom of communication.
User avatar
Medtech
Robot Addict
 
Posts: 134
Joined: October 17th, 2014, 3:12 pm
Location: Moscow Russia

Re: Help with Neato D 80 - not charging anymore

Postby glnc222 » December 1st, 2017, 5:06 am

One possible circuit area of interest is the switching circuits with mosfets and diodes to redirect power to and from the battery, system, and charger. Perhaps a fault there can prevent charging current from reaching the battery.
The analog sensor data for system current should show a 2 amp increase when charging -- if not a separate battery current figure. An ammeter can also be wired into the battery connector or leads.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4617
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Help with Neato D 80 - not charging anymore

Postby MrGT » December 4th, 2017, 3:02 am

Thank your very much for replies and help .The log of charging is attached please have a look .
Attachments
neatoLog.txt
(59.31 KiB) Downloaded 37 times
MrGT
 
Posts: 7
Joined: November 29th, 2017, 4:01 pm

Re: Help with Neato D 80 - not charging anymore

Postby MrGT » December 4th, 2017, 3:33 am

To make the first log i have charged a bit battery with external charger. Then made that log. After that I have set Fuel with SetFuelGauge to 100 and run the robot . As the battery was charged only about 1.5 hours it could clean one room and returned to base . Here it the second log after returning to base, I can see in this log that
ChargingActive,0
ChargingEnabled,1
ConfidentOnFuel,1
OnReservedFuel,1
Why ChargingActive is false ? Before running neato in first log it was true.
Attachments
neatoAfterRun.txt
(28.76 KiB) Downloaded 35 times
MrGT
 
Posts: 7
Joined: November 29th, 2017, 4:01 pm

Re: Help with Neato D 80 - not charging anymore

Postby glnc222 » December 4th, 2017, 9:35 pm

This is similar to the two other cases being discussed. The small battery discharge shown is the normal cpu system load of the robot without motors running.
I suspect the Charging Enabled may mean the cpu has switched the power controls to send power from the charger to the battery, and Charging Active indicates the charging circuit is active. Yet no charging current is shown, and no temperature rise which normally terminates charging. Without the schematics and software design, it is hard to say what is happening, except there is some fault in the charging circuit. If the power is not properly switched the charging circuit might be turned off in software because no current gets through. The software does not have diagnostics built in. The charging may get turned off, not Active, when it doesn't deliver current as expected.
The system design is not known. To reverse engineer this, logic analyzers would be attached to the cpu and the output pin activity examined along with tracing the circuitry.

That diode D4 mentioned could be the problem, only way to tell is replace it. On XV systems, a diode fault was involved in locking the system in charging mode.

The GetCharger data is not complete, as the GetAnalogSensors shows battery voltages as well, elevated 1-2v to push charge into the battery. However when charging the system is supposed to use constant current 2 amps, and stop when temperature rises in the standard NiMh procedure. A follow on low current topping-off cycle can occur later, in the messy procedures for optimal NiMh charging with all the temperature effects.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4617
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Help with Neato D 80 - not charging anymore

Postby MrGT » December 6th, 2017, 1:43 am

Hi, glnc222, Thanks for you answer, Yes I saw the other user case, his log is very similar to mine. How you think , should i thing about battery issue itself or looking at the logs you can say that the issue is in board or dock?
Yes I will try to replace the diode. but I don't know where to buy it and what kind of diode it is , can you help?
MrGT
 
Posts: 7
Joined: November 29th, 2017, 4:01 pm

Re: Help with Neato D 80 - not charging anymore

Postby Medtech » December 6th, 2017, 3:42 am

getcharger
Label,Value
FuelPercent,20
BatteryOverTemp,0
ChargingActive,1
ChargingEnabled,1
ConfidentOnFuel,0
OnReservedFuel,0
EmptyFuel,0
BatteryFailure,0
ExtPwrPresent,1
ThermistorPresent,1
BattTempCAvg,22
VBattV,13.82
VExtV,11.57

Charger_mAH,1415
Discharge_mAH,0
================================================
getcharger
Label,Value
FuelPercent,20
BatteryOverTemp,0
ChargingActive,1
ChargingEnabled,1
ConfidentOnFuel,0
OnReservedFuel,0
EmptyFuel,0
BatteryFailure,0
ExtPwrPresent,1
ThermistorPresent,1
BattTempCAvg,22
VBattV,13.57
VExtV,13.61
Charger_mAH,0
Discharge_mAH,95
================================================
getcharger
Label,Value
FuelPercent,20
BatteryOverTemp,0
ChargingActive,1
ChargingEnabled,1
ConfidentOnFuel,0
OnReservedFuel,0
EmptyFuel,0
BatteryFailure,0
ExtPwrPresent,1
ThermistorPresent,1
BattTempCAvg,22
VBattV,13.93
VExtV,11.94

Charger_mAH,2801
Discharge_mAH,0

interesting emissions in the first record.
You should change the base, repair the 2 version of the board until it turned out never. The board has a PIC, a programmable controller, for us it's a black box, and it's unprofitable to change it from a serviceable board. It's easier to replace the entire base.
Thank you GOOGLE translator for the freedom of communication.
User avatar
Medtech
Robot Addict
 
Posts: 134
Joined: October 17th, 2014, 3:12 pm
Location: Moscow Russia

Re: Help with Neato D 80 - not charging anymore

Postby glnc222 » December 6th, 2017, 4:59 am

Medtech says the dock is bad, not the system board. I cannot identify components like the diode; there might be a label on it with a part number, is all I could use, with the Digi-Key catalog or even Google. I seem to have missed the voltage data in GetCharger. Medtech describes the innards of the dock, using a PIC microcontroller, computer, which has some unknown program doing fancy things. Common digital system construction, though there are specialized, dedicated IC's for power management sometimes used. Those PIC's are inexpensive. I am just looking into programming them.

What is needed to interpret these things is a baseline, a record from a good system showing how it should look. I do not have one, using a Samsung now, Botvac gone.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4617
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Help with Neato D 80 - not charging anymore

Postby shirgal » December 6th, 2017, 8:54 am

I can confirm i repaired issue same like MrGT is describing fluctuate base voltage here on D80 Botvac,
Charger base pcb was found bad.
Medtech answer is correct.
User avatar
shirgal
Robot Addict
 
Posts: 157
Joined: July 8th, 2013, 10:54 am

Re: Help with Neato D 80 - not charging anymore

Postby MrGT » December 6th, 2017, 1:50 pm

Thank you all for answers. Medtech, you think the only thing can produce behavior like this can be PIC micro controller? So trying to find some other broken components(like diodes ) is senselessly?
glnc222, Yes I know the PIC's are very cheap , but as I understand no one can find the source code of the program it runs? My knowledges in hardware is very limited but I think the binnary hex code can be extracted from the working PIC and then uploaded to the new PIC, can't it? Maybe someone can even get the source code by PCB's Reverse Engineering.
shirgal , how did you repair ? did you replace PIC , if the answer is yes, where did you find the program it should run?
MrGT
 
Posts: 7
Joined: November 29th, 2017, 4:01 pm

Re: Help with Neato D 80 - not charging anymore

Postby glnc222 » December 6th, 2017, 3:00 pm

If you are equipped with all the tools you could extract the code in the PIC, but without the design of the entire unit, what it connects to, might not be of use. It is not clear the PIC is the problem, maybe some sensor or other part of the switching power supply and voltage regulator. Deciphering machine code is a programming specialty, with special professional software tools etc. I tend to find it not worth the time in that it is easier to create an entire application from scratch. Certain people, hackers, specialize in it, know the processors, have all the development tools for them etc. Usually for things with more general use, cell phones etc., than specialized vacuum cleaners -- doesn't interest them.

Thanks to Russian hackers the firmware update files for the XV models were captured for off-line updating after Neato Robotics discontinued online updating. The original Botvac's, without WiFi were never updated, code pretty well polished after so many years. Adding WiFi opened up a new can of worms for them, with constant environment changes, more like a PC.

The other thread on similar problem showed a severe over-voltage on the dock I missed, so that really points to the dock as the defect. Interesting there have not been a lot of reports about replacing Botvac docks.
Thanks so much to Medtech for advice.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4617
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Help with Neato D 80 - not charging anymore

Postby MrGT » December 12th, 2017, 9:40 am

Thank you all for answers . I have bought used but original charger from ebay I hope it will work :). I will write the results when I get it.
MrGT
 
Posts: 7
Joined: November 29th, 2017, 4:01 pm

Re: Help with Neato D 80 - not charging anymore

Postby Medtech » December 12th, 2017, 4:58 pm

These cases are not many, about 300-400 cases of repair Botvac about 5-7 faulty bases, one of which was repaired, the output key was replaced, this is the old version of the base card, they are rarely found. Search and reverse engineering of the system at such an amount is unprofitable.
Thank you GOOGLE translator for the freedom of communication.
User avatar
Medtech
Robot Addict
 
Posts: 134
Joined: October 17th, 2014, 3:12 pm
Location: Moscow Russia


Return to Neato Robotics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: johnnyh, lanchez, vic7767 and 398 guests