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D3 updated with No-Go Lines

PostPosted: December 6th, 2018, 12:59 pm
by fmulders
Just to let you all know, my D3 is updated with the No-Go lines option!
The update went very well this time. No issues with the need to reconnect after the update!
Good job Neato!

This update also added the Eco mode, nice...
I experimented a little with the No-Go lines and have to say that this is really the best option to stand out over the competition. And just in time to exclude the area of the Christmas Tree and holliday stuff in the living.

Very happy with it.

Re: D3 updated with No-Go Lines

PostPosted: December 7th, 2018, 12:25 pm
by redpoint5
This is the news I've been waiting for!

I bought a new D3 for ~170 around Black Friday and kept it in the box in case no-go lines didn't make it to the D3.

Really no reason to go for the higher models except for side brush, multiple floors, and zone cleaning.

Re: D3 updated with No-Go Lines

PostPosted: December 13th, 2018, 3:55 pm
by redpoint5
Today I tried no-go lines for the first time. The first 3 attempts, the app said the D3 didn't recognize the floor plan after pulling forward from the base a few inches and surveying the surroundings. The 4th time it recognized the location and cleaned, although I changed nothing between attempts.

One thing that is likely confusing the bot is I have it live under a square dresser in the corner of the bedroom, and it parks between the 4 legs. When it pulls forward from the base, it doesn't make it past the legs of the dresser, so perhaps it doesn't get a good reading on the surrounding walls. I'll move the bot if this continues to be a problem, but that would also require recreating a floor plan.

I've always wondered why the original xv-11 needed to turn diagonally to determine its position. The turret spins, so turning the bot shouldn't be necessary except to fill in the areas blocked by the posts supporting the turret cover. I think the D3 does this also, but I haven't observed it much yet.

The thing that annoys me the most is the backup behavior; it's excessive. The bot is always climbing up things in reverse. Why doesn't Neato program the bot to pivot rather than back up? At least if it backs up, it shouldn't do so more than say an inch. It needs a rear bumper switch if they're going to let it back up more than that.

Finally, this last run the bot was returning to base and it within a foot, and then decided to drive out 2 rooms away, wander around a bit bumping into things and trying to back up over objects before driving back and parking. No idea why the bot would wander so far to locate the base, and bumble around. Does it really need to run into objects to determine its location?

Overall very satisfied with the improvements that have been made since the xv series. Hopefully my few nitpicks will be addressed in future updates.

Re: D3 updated with No-Go Lines

PostPosted: December 13th, 2018, 8:04 pm
by glnc222
I suspect the Neato backs up when sensing an obstacle in the front, a bumper strike or something (drive wheel stalls are also used), to allow room in the front to turn away or around the obstacle. When encountering a mag strip (or virtual boundary), I have seen them back up and move along the boundary constantly probing it to find any opening it could use (perhaps the virtual boundaries work better, or should anyway, since presumably it could analyze the boundary entirely internally in memory -- more like Lidar detecting a wall it can see entirely, compared to blind detection of a mag strip or cliff).

My complaint is that in tight spots it does not seem to use any memory of how it got into the spot, so it could back out the same way, but reverts to a simplistic random procedure, turning around and probing, which can result in just spinning around without ever getting out. I have had better luck under cabinets in this regard with my Samsung. They all require, however, enough room to turn around and move forward instead of backing out -- backing up seems to be just to get room in the front.

These details of navigation do not seem the subject of development by Neato Robotics, more devoted to whatever new feature they are promoting. The people who wrote that code long ago may not even be available.

Re: D3 updated with No-Go Lines

PostPosted: December 19th, 2018, 5:59 pm
by fmulders
My experience with the software introducing the No-Go Lines so far:
I found the D3 near the charger after a full run. It was not charging and stood 50 cm away from the charger without any error. This never happened before in the last 14 months!
If I move stuff around while the robot is cleaning it can get confused. Before it was adapting to the change and cleaned every spot very well. Now I see him wander around looking and turning without any progress until I revert the change I made before.

Conclusion: The software is not as good as it was before!
I hope Neato will fix this for us...

The App:
It can be hard to determine where the No-Go Line should be placed on the map. Moving it around can be a hassle because my finger is blocking the view where to place it. The robot needs to start from the base to use the No-Go Lines and that can be inconvenient if your No-Go area is at the other side of the house. You need to wait till it gets there, to discover that your Christmas decoration was a little bigger than you thought.
It was still kidnapping 2 sheeps from under the tree. (or is that called sheep-napping ;) )

But still, I am very pleased with this new feature.

Re: D3 updated with No-Go Lines

PostPosted: December 20th, 2018, 12:37 am
by HiTec
Neatos can not adapt well if you move things when its cleaning. If it worked before, its a pure luck and its also possibility that because floor plan option already has a map on memory, robot just compares it to live scan and thinks it should match. If not, it tries to adapt, but if theres too many/too big differences, it just cant be sure about its location and its surroundings. Remember that to robot with slam, its current and future position and location on its enviroment is based on propability calculations. Its not the same if you compare it with humans, even if robot has a lidar.

If you are interested enough, google slam navigation and its algorithms.

Without floor plan use its a timing dependent thing. If you move things when it has already made a map about things around it, ofc it will be confused. Its how slam works.

You just should not move things when its cleaning. I think this is also said in a manual, or neatos faq. And do not change bigger things to a different place without updating floor plan. It can tolerate small differences, but not big changes.

People can also be confused if familiar enviroment is changed and miss the ramp in traffic etc. Or you have memorized that you are absolutely sure you put something in somewhere and now its in a different place.

Re: D3 updated with No-Go Lines

PostPosted: December 20th, 2018, 3:56 am
by susantx3
I have three D3's that have been updated. I have not had a single day since in which all three of the Robots successfully completed a mission. (Prior to the update, they had a 99.99% completion rate and return to base.)

I think we are being used as Beta testers for the "No Go Lines"

Re: D3 updated with No-Go Lines

PostPosted: January 1st, 2019, 2:57 pm
by Kip
I just purchase the new neato D7 because of the echo integration and virtual no-go lines. But I was greatly disappointed to find out that the robot cannot be activated with Alexa if you want to use the no go lines. The no lines option only works through the app. What's the point of having echo voice activation if you can't use it with the no lines?

Re: D3 updated with No-Go Lines

PostPosted: January 1st, 2019, 8:02 pm
by redpoint5
I don't know the point of voice activation because the app is pretty decent. That, and this is a D3 thread. I'd take the D7 back and get a D3, which went for as little as $150 new recently.