News 2017: Samsung POWERbot VR7000

News and information about the Samsung Navibot, Tango, Furot and VC series Robotic Vacuums. All discussion and troubleshooting questions go here.

Re: News 2017: Samsung POWERbot VR7000

Postby glnc222 » January 30th, 2017, 5:51 pm

Sale prices Jan. 2017 may reflect only excess inventory after 2016 year end holiday season, clearance. New models can be a separate longer term strategy.

The fan power on these machines is not reported consistently in advertising, on the same basis, and is all over the lot at different country websites. There measures are used: a multiple of oldest Roomba type minimal fans, "X times" etc., a "power consumption" which is likely the electric power drain, and a "suction power" which may be air watts used for vacuums, much lower than electric power measures. Also, the maximum power can be based on a Max mode in certain models, with half the normal run time and lots more power to the fan. I find this mode adds only a little to cleaning because of non-linearity in the efficiency of the motors, and the increased load appeared to wear the battery out faster. It goes on automatically in Normal mode when the dirt detector triggers, kind of nice. The Max mode can tripple the power consumption of the motor but the effect on air watts can be much less.
Similarly, the maximum run time specs are misleading because based on the minimal power "Quiet" mode with little cleaning power, slower brush as well as fan. Maybe good on hard floors, unknown.

A current R9000 version of the oldest model lists "10 times" and 5.9 Air watts. A 9020 "Essential" lists also 10X, 20W suction and 80W power consumption. A 9350 lists 70X, 40W suction and 250W max mode power consumption.
A 9250 with 180W max power was cited at "140 Times" in one place and "50X" in another. The 9050 once top of the line before WiFi shows "20X" and 30W suction. Whether power or air watts not clear.

I would look closely at the manual for any model to note whether a half run time max mode is supported when interpreting the specs. Their designs are subject to change all the time, such a plethora of models.
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Re: News 2017: Samsung POWERbot VR7000

Postby piokrza » January 31st, 2017, 3:41 am

glnc222 wrote:There measures are used: a multiple of oldest Roomba type minimal fans,


Currently, from what I've noticed: in Europe and South Korea they compared VR9000 in their tests to their old Navibot CornerCleaner VR10F71 or another SR89xx model (available here a few years ago), which is more fair (both mapping) than what they do in USA, where they compare VR9000 to "competitive brand", iRobot Roomba 880 (not mapping).

EDIT 2/02/2017
official http://samsungces2017.com/powerbot/
another source is telling:
The company is bringing its Powerbot VR7000 to Canada in April at a price tag somewhere between $649 and $899

http://alphabeatic.com/samsung-powerbot/
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Re: News 2017: Samsung POWERbot VR7000

Postby piokrza » February 4th, 2017, 10:57 am

Looks pretty impressive.
0:58 0.3 Litre bin - less than half the capacity of VR9000's bin
1:12 Self-Cleaning Brush System
1:33 3in wheels
2:29 Edge Clean Master & Auto Shutter
3:43 Self-Cleaning Brush System
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Re: News 2017: Samsung POWERbot VR7000

Postby glnc222 » February 4th, 2017, 2:50 pm

Piokrza mentions 3 in. wheels. The 9000 Easy Pass wheels are 4 in., larger than the Neato 3 in. wheels. I wondered about this when they advertised lower height. The larger wheels help on carpets which Neato's cannot navigate. A lot of care is needed with details on the features of these machines when buying. Larger wheels were a feature of the old Trilobite, which could navigate better. There seems to be a law that when one thing gets fixed something else breaks.

[edit] At 3:34 in CES video above pretty good carpet navigation.
Last edited by glnc222 on February 5th, 2017, 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: News 2017: Samsung POWERbot VR7000

Postby piokrza » February 4th, 2017, 3:44 pm

Most people don't have rugs thicker than Neato, Roomba or Samsung VR7000 couldn't deal with. That's it. So what would be the purpose to invent something that bulky like VR9000 (or Trilobite) anymore, if it can't reach mass market and become as popular as e.g. slim & affordable Roomba? VR9000 is, first of all, way TOO tall to go under furnitures in most nowadays homes. Also, it's overpriced as its spare parts and after warranty service. Most nowadays homes don't have carpet anymore, but hard floors, sometimes with area rug.
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Re: News 2017: Samsung POWERbot VR7000

Postby glnc222 » February 4th, 2017, 6:53 pm

Surprisingly the wheel traction problem is not so much thickness of carpet, where very deep piles cannot be navigated by any robots, as much as carpet getting slippery. There are wax materials in some fibers and humidity, seasonal factors can be involved. Even the Powerbot cannot move on fluffy bath rugs, though third_deg claims his design (not produced yet) will do so (the Premium Wamsutta Fluffy Bath Rug test). Neato performance on carpet can be partly overcome by adding a slider plate on the bottom (Neato forum thread). I did find Samsung wheels had more traction in the tread than Neato's, more tacky or something, the ribbing (lot of subtleties in car tires in the patterns -- traction occurs on the edges of the blocks or ribs).

Slightly flexible rims on the 9350 Powerbot wheels increase traction to allow traversing 1/2 additional cm of threshold heights compared to other Powerbots. I have found the problem often traction on the edge of floor transition where the robot is tilted up and weight does not press at the angle required to grip.

I should have figured that with overall robot height 4 inches, it could not have four inch wheels with any room for suspension movement up and down.
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Re: News 2017: Samsung POWERbot VR7000

Postby piokrza » February 5th, 2017, 9:22 am

red cyclonic filter version
2:14 red-black Auto Shutter barrier is visible
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Re: News 2017: Samsung POWERbot VR7000

Postby glnc222 » February 5th, 2017, 7:21 pm

At 3:34 in English CES video above http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewtopic.php?p=142125#p142125
pretty good navigation on not so easy carpet. While the wheels only 3 in. they have the better ribbing. The manual will be needed for the threshold height specification.

Interesting brush details, self-cleaning brush, simple and clever. How well it works, we will have to see. But a welcome effort. Scrapers on the brush guard cross pieces.

The major problem with the Powerbots was improper weight balance and wheel sensing allowing the robot to "wheelie" (like a motorcycle) against furniture legs, tripping a "lifted off the floor" shut down. They seem to have added counter-weights in the 9350 and maybe other 2016 models. Also partly software in maybe misinterpreting a single wheel extension signal. Other robots never shut down on wheel extensions. (A simple fix for the older Powerbots in another thread -- keep the wheels from over-extending.) The point is, while they add all these nice refinements with the brush and so on, did they fix their original problem? It is difficult to admit such problems publicly in advertising as too easily misinterpreted. The new forward casing (reminds of "cab forward" auto design) may have better balance, and presumably more thoroughly analyzed in design than the older models. The company is known for rushing out designs a bit too quickly; too easy for them to produce them.

[edit] Samsung has a huge presence in the U.S. major appliance market, in dept. stores and appliance stores, but most do not carry the robot vacuums (in specialty and electronics stores). There was some talk of them "dumping" in terms of international trade. Because of the 20th century Korean war I think, Korea has a "favored nation" trade status with the U.S., no import duties. This may change in the new political environment concerned with trade issues. No telling yet though. They have already responded some by planning more U.S. factories -- much as Japan did with cars decades ago.
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Re: News 2017: Samsung POWERbot VR7000

Postby piokrza » February 5th, 2017, 7:36 pm

4:58-5:00 worth to notice uncleaned space gap, when it get back from the corner, turns right and try to follow along wall it stays away from the wall maybe 20-30cm until it aligns again, poor
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Re: News 2017: Samsung POWERbot VR7000

Postby glnc222 » February 6th, 2017, 4:00 am

Dimensions: the brush is 11.3 in. (288mm) long compared to 12.24 in. (311mm) 9000 series, about one inch less, about 7 per cent (still wider than Neato Botvac brush). So it may take that much longer to clean the same area, and maybe longer with a pattern made to move along walls (the old pattern would butt against walls (softly if visible to IR detectors -- not always the case, with a little felt addition needed, each end of the travel lines). I am not sure the demos reveal the travel pattern, being too small an area. Maybe you can tell?

So the brushes cannot be interchanged with 9000 brushes. The narrower unit width will make it better in tight spaces and between legs on chairs. Sort of fine tuning.

It does not seem to have the trick Neato used making the bearing end of the brush (lacking the brush motor linkage taking space) closer to the side running against the wall. But Samsung has had no problems with its mounting and bearing like Neato's older model Botvacs; they seem to understand construction from the get-go (an appliance company after all). Overall width of the front is then probably the same 1 inch less than 9000.

[correction] Samsung 9000 brush drive is similar to Neato with an enclosed belt drive on the side (contra previous impression of gears from a limited diagram). We will have to see how they did this with the brush farther forward with the bumper there, interesting.

brushmotor9000.jpg
Last edited by glnc222 on February 6th, 2017, 1:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: News 2017: Samsung POWERbot VR7000

Postby piokrza » February 6th, 2017, 5:06 am

I think that the area was too small to show real-life behaviours, patterns, etc. At least, similar area are used in chain stores to demonstrate robot vacs and seller always tells me: "this area is too small to show how it really works in real environment [house]", so maybe...

Brushes are shorter and probably different design than VR9000's brushes, but what I think about are these two rubber blade & bristle "pet" brushes interchangable between certain VR7000's models as well as self cleaning brush cover with regular brush cover in VR7000's ? Still unknown. Also, there was not shown if the self-cleaning brush system consists only of special design rubber brush and "teethed" brush cover or something else inside brush module/under brush itself, not shown in the video? Must be confirmed.

It does not have brush installed so close to the wall which it follows in wall follow pattern, but it has strong suction. Not confirmed how it will act on wall-to-wall carpet. It is confirmed to better corner cleaning on hard floor than Neato Botvac and Roomba (kelrobots tests on youtube shows the "results" of Neato Botvac and Roomba on hard floor in corners).

Powerbot VR9000's brush drive has belt. See PM from me.
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Re: News 2017: Samsung POWERbot VR7000

Postby glnc222 » February 6th, 2017, 2:08 pm

Speaking of brushes the new Xiaomi Mi lacks a guard over the brush and a user reported brush blocking error on carpet, though the pile depth not given (companies fail to warn about the long known inability of robots to work on deep pile carpet, though Samsung has the advice in the fine print of the manual, a bit stronger warning than needed, 1 cm, under 1/2 in., pile limit. Usually it is only inability to travel, not brush snags. http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewtopic.php?p=142141#p142141
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Re: News 2017: Samsung POWERbot VR7000

Postby glnc222 » February 6th, 2017, 2:25 pm

The swerve away from the wall noticed in video above:

I have seen a similar effect in Neato's following walls, when encountering an outside corner. A much more elaborate maneuver, analogous to their inside corner, "corner clever" behavior, is needed to re-align against a wall. I do not know if newest models do anything like that. Perhaps the skipped area gets covered in another pass sometime. Operation in a full size room is needed to see. Previously Samsung has advertised a three pass poke into corners as a software addition to the 9350, not supplied for earlier WiFi models. Probably superseded by the entirely new 7000 approach. Wait for full specs. (Don't expect software improvements to be supplied on older models, they want to sell new ones. The updates seem to be only for the complications of WiFi itself or bugs that cause system crashes.)
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Re: News 2017: Samsung POWERbot VR7000

Postby piokrza » February 8th, 2017, 4:08 pm

4:20-5:16 seems like it starts from edge cleaning. "Swerve away from the wall" noticed after not only escaping each corner, but also after turning at the wall and following it 4:35-4:38 if it do the same at each detected obstacle then no-sidebrush design seem to be worthless :(
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Re: News 2017: Samsung POWERbot VR7000

Postby glnc222 » February 8th, 2017, 4:27 pm

The only way I could get the 9000 from getting trapped climbing onto lamp bases was getting it to swerve away with a bumper extension. Some manual cleaning is needed now and then anyway for furniture nothing will go under. I am all for alternatives to side brushes which proved a nuisance. It depends on the flooring and furniture, what works best. They seem to have covered the territory with a 9051 model with side brushes. Their brushes look a little more rugged, though hard to tell just from photos. Prices are going to make the difference, if they go low as initially suggested. We will have to see U.S. marketing costs, and get some units to reviewers.
Swerving around small obstacles has been one of their specialties, shown in videos, using the IR proximity sensors. It does not work on dark furniture legs. I have not seen any demo of advantage with ultrasound sensors as included in the Vorwerk VR200 and the new Xiaomi Mi. Companies advertise their hardware but not demos of performance (Dyson has a track drive but no demo of advantage on deeper carpets; the track was really for the footprint being too small for ordinary wheels, to stay upright.)
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Re: News 2017: Samsung POWERbot VR7000

Postby piokrza » February 16th, 2017, 2:55 pm

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Re: News 2017: Samsung POWERbot VR7000

Postby piokrza » February 18th, 2017, 7:00 pm

entire commercial in the background
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Re: News 2017: Samsung POWERbot VR7000

Postby piokrza » February 20th, 2017, 5:08 pm

they equipped it with red colored cyclone and shutter parts so you could better notice main features?

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Re: News 2017: Samsung POWERbot VR7000

Postby glnc222 » February 20th, 2017, 5:41 pm

There have been refined sensors in the PowerBot line of interest. There is an optical sensor in the intake which detects more dirt picked up and engaging the higher suction power. I have seen it go off in certain spots against walls at certain times, so seems to really work. How robots do the newer feature in a few brands of distinguishing hard floors from carpets is a mystery (this can enhance run time by saving power on hard floors). Neato Robotics always specified higher loads and shorter run times from drag running on carpets, so maybe they use that. Curious how that works. The filter clogging sensor has worked well, showing an icon after numerous runs and cleared with washing the filter (running a moment with the cleaned filter clears the indicator, besides rebooting entirely). While there is centrifuge extraction it is not as powerful as Dyson and dust accumulates slowly on the washable filter. A fine HEPA filter probably would not work in these machines, though there was some model listed briefly at a U.S.dept. store labeled an allergen filter, possibly by mistake, never saw it.

It looks to me the bumper has been improved with a longer side piece, but I would have to test it to see if it still needs the expansion I added to the 9000 model.

They make a big deal out of it being lower, but my sofa has only 3 in. clearance and no robot fits under it. The problem with older brands has been failure to detect such overhead obstacles (soft cushions in this case, harder to detect) and forcing themselves into traps under the sofa (at least carpet has protected the wheels they fail to turn off with crude software). The Samsung at least avoids that entirely with IR proximity sensors (surprising they get the price competitive with all that stuff). Whatever the newer other brand models do, they do not publish any specification about this. What improvement sonar on some brands accomplish has never been reported by users (since the makers like to highlight hardware but never give examples of their performance; well, I'm a demanding customer, natural curmudgeon, Socrates to the industry -- do they come with Hemlock?).
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Re: News 2017: Samsung POWERbot VR7000

Postby rabidrobet » February 20th, 2017, 6:23 pm

[quote="piokrza"]they equipped it with red colored cyclone and shutter parts so you could better notice main features?

Sounds reasonable for sure.
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