Samsung VR9000 series models

News and information about the Samsung Navibot, Tango, Furot and VC series Robotic Vacuums. All discussion and troubleshooting questions go here.

Re: Samsung VR9000 series models

Postby glnc222 » May 1st, 2016, 7:58 pm

I am not impressed by 3X Corner cleaning. I doubt it picks up anymore and just wastes run time.
Big companies will do a lot of slick advertising having a large product line over which to spread the cost.
The simpler Powerbots remain attractive but anything to do with WiFi seems to be in its infancy. When the 9400 debuts next year, maybe bargains on 9300's.
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Re: Samsung VR9000 series models

Postby takedown » May 5th, 2016, 6:50 am

Hello,
I bought the "samsung powerbot VR9200" from Switzerland store 3 month ago for 650 CHF,
the product is working very well on vacuuming the floor but still there is some program and sensor issues.
i cant really say if i recommend it because recently i change the left wheel it got jammed god now how,
the fix was very easy just like 8 - 10 screws for disassemble, hope i will not need to do it again.

here is a link that can help your robot to climb perfectly on carpet on it, have a look .

https://youtu.be/WuahbGQs86g
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Re: Samsung VR9000 series models

Postby glnc222 » May 5th, 2016, 1:44 pm

Might fix problem with solid black carpet above http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewtopic.php?p=137279#p137279
Manuals do specify not working on black floors.

That Swiss bargain price was some special sale and the price went up soon after, nearly twice. Perhaps they even made a mistake about what model they were selling. Sold only onsite in Swiss stores. There might not even be any service outside that country, the way Samsung operates.

Any more detail on wheel disassembly would be useful, though partsmaster.uk (previous posts) does have exploded assembly diagrams.
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Re: Samsung VR9000 series models

Postby takedown » May 6th, 2016, 10:57 am

Here is two pics about the inside of the robot,
the photos are not so sharp or good quality.

First pic:
Here you can see the 2 screws that hold the left wheel
and the flat cable that is coming out from the motor into the mother board.
you don't really need to dissemble the front plastic cover to get the main cover out,
i just wanted to check it out.

Second pic:
The upper wheel is the faulty and the lower one is new.

I hope it will help some one.

20160219_150511.jpg


IMG_20160426_161715.jpg
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Re: Samsung VR9000 series models

Postby third_deg » May 6th, 2016, 1:31 pm

Wow! So many daisy chained PCB's. Fair amount of money and board space spent on connectors.

Why is it that the cool tire design you see on the website (Open pockets on the side for extra give) doesn't always appear in the actual robot?
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Re: Samsung VR9000 series models

Postby glnc222 » May 6th, 2016, 2:13 pm

Making their own connectors could be one advantage of a large electronics empire.

Wheel design: I think those open sides are on newer wheels, as they appeared on a cheaper model introduced, and then are shown later on the most advanced model. I have not seen the cheaper model anymore in stores to check the consistency of the tread. Extra flexion could be what allows the new most expensive 9300 model to specify a higher, 2cm threshold crossing exclusive to this model, as nothing else seems to have changed. But then, why did the old cheaper model not have that? Maybe it did have that, and they just did not say so. Not enough user reports yet.
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Re: Samsung VR9000 series models

Postby robocleaner » May 6th, 2016, 4:30 pm

third_deg wrote:Wow! So many daisy chained PCB's. Fair amount of money and board space spent on connectors.

It has both logic and advantage to it...

It seems a separate camera board, a left and right sensor board, a main logic board... looks like some charging circuitry under the main logic board too and probably a separate display board on removed cover?

It might mean this Samsung is actually economically repairable with interchangeable/replaceable local-function boards... as opposed to iRobots method of having to throw an entire motherboard away just to fix one minor malfunction...

It could also mean Samsung have the opportunity to exchange common feature boards with upgraded boards to add selected or enhanced functionality to upmarket models... like wi-fi, scheduling, virtual walls, enhanced displays, remote, voice command, bluetooth (noted on this board) etc... without having to make a complete series of largely the same 1-piece motherboards where 80% of normal operational functionality is common among all models.

Again, unlike iRobot where the old-school largely discrete-component circuit design tends to result in a one-piece board the size of a baseball field, the typically far-eastern, nicely compact integrated design here means there's a lot of unused real-estate within the machine: Does it really matter if some of that surplus space is occupied by necessary extra connectors (which cost what... a few extra cents?) to achieve that aim of easy adaptability, flexibility, and ease of repair?

Personally, I'm quietly impressed by the compactness and repair-ability of it all...
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Re: Samsung VR9000 series models

Postby third_deg » May 6th, 2016, 8:25 pm

The key to the iRobot giant PCB is that it's used to eliminate as much wiring as possible. One thing you find in making robots it it's often wires becoming chaffed, or a connector not being installed properly that leads to failure.

So repair ability was covered through the easy to change out, modular mechanical assemblies, while the board, which should fail far less often is less accessible.

But as you say, at times you have to replace the entire board.
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Re: Samsung VR9000 series models

Postby glnc222 » May 7th, 2016, 12:39 am

It is not always effective to look at general rules when they do not really apply to a particular case, and the real problems of those cases do not get examined.
Maybe wiring is an issue in the more complex robots, with articulated arms and so on, but in a Neato vacuum for example, I saw no wiring involved in movement at all, except in disassembling. The only incidents of wear seem to be from messing with it; the operation doesn't touch the wires. I don't know about Roomba's having had only an early one which seemed particularly crude compared to the Neato replacing it.

The modular construction with multiple boards could assist in manufacture more than repair (since when do any of these get repaired?). Quality control rejections get limited to particular modules. Problems in manufacture, parts etc., get isolated to particular areas and their critical components. You would have to get all the figures and details to make a management decision, and how the construction is organized, with which suppliers, in what relations etc. I just surmise that Samsung's main business being a broad line of electronics, has more resources for electronics in house, with more control and cost advantages. They are making all sorts of boards, and bring the same standards and resources to the vacuum line. The end price may not reflect that but it may show up in durability. Or you could hire someone like say, Avnet?

Personally I want a vacuum which can work better with the furnishings of the house, difficult robotics problems, and just presume they are going to use proper electronics manufacture. It they don't, goodbye. (Maybe I should get one of those, what would you say, referee robots, for the robotic war machine shows, which shove the losers off the stage?).
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Re: Samsung VR9000 series models

Postby third_deg » May 7th, 2016, 1:43 am

I'm not being critical of the Samsung design. I'm just saying why we made the choices we made.

The size of the boards they are using are pretty small, such that the connectors take up much of the room. So generally speaking from a cost standpoint that's sub optimal. And creates more potential for human error.

But it's not like you can't do it. Due to packaging reasons, my own robot will also not have one giant board. But I would have liked to do it that way if I could have.
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Re: Samsung VR9000 series models

Postby Culaythesniper » May 21st, 2016, 2:25 am

Hi glnc222, I just bought Series 9050, to replace my roomba 780 which has a damaged circuit board due to charging circuit and Li-ion battery failure. The cost of the replacement board and battery is too expensive for my region (I live in South East Asia).

Just want to check with you if you have perform any modification to the cliff sensor to avoid the black carpet? Just like the one on roomba.

I notice that the cliff sensor (falling) is more sensitive than roomba, just a few centimeter is enough to trigger it.

Btw, thanks for your and everyone else's review that gives me the "go" feeling to buy it.
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Re: Samsung VR9000 series models

Postby glnc222 » May 21st, 2016, 3:18 pm

I do not have the black carpets but the same fix used for Roomba has been used. See video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuahbGQs86g&feature=youtu.be
Some white reflective material should work, such as paper on sticky tape, etc. forming an artificial floor for the sensor. If not, then aluminum foil mirror finish. Of course, it then cannot be used with stairs etc. Physical barriers are fairly easy to make for stairs, like a strip of wood placed across.

The unique problem with Powerbot seems to be its software for turning around chair legs, where every now and then it will get stuck with insufficient behavior to back off -- which would seem to be simple were it properly programmed. It takes just the right positioning to happen so is unpredictable. Unlike the Neato, it will shut down completely to save the battery, and cannot be resumed in the same map (at least a few minutes delay would have been nice). Development of these products remains a bit casual and oddly focused on internal details ignoring the obvious.

In a few weeks I will complete measuring over two months whether the 9050 normal fan speed works as well as the Max mode on the more expensive WiFi models. I expect little difference but will see. Proof is in the pudding as they say.

[edit] I have not yet tried blocking the cliff sensors to see what effect that has on the chair leg traps, where one side gets lifted, but will see. Not sure that would make any difference from the way it presses itself against the leg. It might just keep on doing that, compared to getting around. Hard to reproduce at will for quick testing.
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Re: Samsung VR9000 series models

Postby Culaythesniper » May 22nd, 2016, 3:19 am

After few days running, I decided to replace my carpet instead of covering the cliff sensor.

I have bad experience with Roomba's cliff sensor (due to modofication done with it). There is a different in elevation between my bedroom and the bathroom which normally would trigger the cliff sensor, however, when I took a bath, roomba wants to join as well and in the end showering himself with water (I forgot to close my door).

I also place some velcro tape at the front section of the robot where the 3 IR beam is located as well as the bottom of the IR beam that is located below the camera. This is due to the height of most of my furniture is just above the IR bumper with black color listing. So the bot just bump into the the furniture and sometimes force its way to enter the gap and scratch itself while doing so. 2days mission is enough to give him a deep scar as a badge of honor and a symbol of stupidity.

In the end, it is always a trade off between ourself and the bot to reach an acceptable level between our expectation on the bot's performance and it's flaw.

Btw, I'm still monitoring whether placing the velcro tape has an impact on the bot's IR sensor especially the one on the 3 IR at the bumper section.

Also, one thing that I notice is that this bot doesn't seem want to pick-up something that is bit larger in size (2cm L x 1cm W x 0.5mm D). The item is always stuck at the roller brush. Unlike roomba that can tolerate this kind of items, even sometimes something that is quite big like my children's lego pieces is not an issue to roomba.
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Re: Samsung VR9000 series models

Postby Culaythesniper » May 22nd, 2016, 3:22 am

Sorry, the size is not 0.5mm Depth but 0.5cm instead (typo error).
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Re: Samsung VR9000 series models

Postby glnc222 » May 22nd, 2016, 3:40 am

Should Lego pieces disappear into a vacuum? Depends on the case I guess. I'm more interested in deep carpet cleaning than large debris. There may be a trade-off between these inherent in the problem. Choose the brand that fits. They aren't shop vacs.

I had posted before also needing some velcro cushioning. Lots of furniture can have recessed kick panels preventing normal contact sensing. I see furniture legs hit too, though, and want velcro for that. The dark ones don't trigger the proximity sensors and the software may not always use it. The behavior is inconsistent, so hard to tell. Velcro seems to work great. I just use a thin strip across the top, but depends on the case.

There is a video posted on the Dyson showing the same problem with that brand. Funny for all that money on luxury models, you don't even get velcro, much less fine Corinthian leather.

Back on the design of circuit boards, the problem is not limited to making them so big and expensive. The big problem with Botvac has been no availability. I don't think the main Samsung boards are available either. Botvac boards have finally started to appear after a couple years, as well as a new Connected model with still unavailable board. Perhaps it is always limited to the previous generation. With Samsung though I would hope the boards are better quality. Perhaps the Navibot experience might show otherwise, don't know.
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Re: Samsung VR9000 series models

Postby takedown » May 30th, 2016, 3:50 am

Hi there,
Just wanted to update about the last 4 weeks using the "MOD" that block the cliff sensor underneath the robot.
So as mention above the mod works perfectly with my black and gray strips carpet, its didn't stuck once when running over every day on the carpet.
I don't really think if SAMSUNG will ever address the problem or give any software fix for it.

Eventually me and my wife + dog are glad we bought this robot, are life is much more cleaner :]
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Re: Samsung VR9000 series models

Postby glnc222 » May 30th, 2016, 3:57 pm

As this black carpet problem affects other brands as well, I suspect the only solution would be different sorts of sensors for the floor. Were the IR detectors calibrated to detect the black carpet, they would read a white surface far away as OK and go over cliffs. Were there a menu option to turn off the cliff sensors, someone would turn it off by mistake and get damage over a cliff -- "human factors", interface problem.

[edit] One user went so far as to get a new rug. Maybe it was very old. Apparently not a precious Persian antique.

Perhaps cheaper than ultrasound, sonar sensors such as on the front of Vorerk's, a mechanical switch, a sensor wheel on the floor could be explored. Devil's in the details. The cleaning head already presses on the floor, on little rollers. What if those were made into sensors? Supplementing IR, not replacing. When rollers show a floor, they can over-ride a cliff seen by IR. When rollers show a drop, IR can determine whether too steep. (Were this problem on a Neato, where it has not been reported, maybe just by accident even though present, it could be possible to build the additional sensors onto it, in a modification. I would not fool around with the expensive Samsung's -- besides having no black carpets myself.)

[edit] (Were rollers somehow enhanced with microswitches, it would be easy to perform the logic with simple digital circuits attached to the output of the IR sensors, over-riding as needed. Done before experimenting with optical boundary marking like Roomba's, added to Neato, other thread. Question is whether any switch can be added, or maybe on additional rollers.)
[edit] Doesn't work -- a navigable drop to black carpet would be treated as a cliff, unless a fancy roller could descend all the way to the carpet.


As there are plenty of different limitations on the robots operation in floor spaces and furniture, this particular rare one may not be worth the cost of fixing. It is pretty hard to fool the IR sensors with most black materials, but these carpets apparently will. You can always make a much more operable robot at great expense, throwing money at the problem. The tech exists, has for years, but is just too expensive. The trick is getting one at a practical cost. Lowered cost of camera and processor components has made the camera guidance practical compared to some years ago. Maybe ultrasound will become more practical.
Last edited by glnc222 on July 23rd, 2016, 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Samsung VR9000 series models

Postby glnc222 » June 7th, 2016, 10:54 pm

With the June, 2016 release of the latest 9350 model, a lot of the cheaper models are appearing on ebay at very low prices, below $300 in the U.S. and way below retailer prices.
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Re: Samsung VR9000 series models

Postby glnc222 » June 12th, 2016, 10:27 pm

In Navibot threads I see mention of a diagnostic mode for parts of the robot, while there appears to be no such facility in the Powerbot, at least in the manual. Some back-tracking there by Samsung. More support for sticking to the cheapest models.
It is possible such tools exist but accessible only to Samsung repair facilities. No telling what codes the remote control receiver might respond to, whatever is supplied on the remote itself.
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Re: Samsung VR9000 series models

Postby robocleaner » June 13th, 2016, 5:48 am

I'm sure diagnostic tests will exist... it's just a question of finding out how to access them. Member Piokrza found and posted on this forum the link for the 88xx series documentation.

Why don't you try the same sequence - power switch on, remove the dustbin, then hold in the front bumper and (at the same time) press the start button for 3 seconds?
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