Help! Got your BotVac opened up? I need a part number!

News and information about the Neato XV-11 Robotic Vacuum. All discussion and troubleshooting questions go here.

Re: Help! Got your BotVac opened up? I need a part number!

Postby Tomcat05 » July 18th, 2015, 10:19 am

glnc222 wrote:Check the data sheet for correct details.


You really got me thinking! Thank You.

The information I started with was that the correct sensor has "A324" printed on the face. I interpreted that to be an A3240 part. But, with your comments on functionality, I began to question that determination.

Sure enough, it makes more sense that the part is really an Allegro A1324 !!! This makes much more sense as the data sheet describes its use as "...New applications for linear output Hall-effect devices, such as displacement."

How cool is that? I ordered some - they are part number A1324LUA-T
Tomcat05
 
Posts: 19
Joined: July 14th, 2015, 4:46 pm

Re: Help! Got your BotVac opened up? I need a part number!

Postby glnc222 » July 18th, 2015, 1:16 pm

[edit] Allegro A1324 is higher sensitivity version in series A1324-1326 per data sheet. Large Allegro catalog with some items discontinued over time, newer replacements. See Digi-Key listings for varieties.

We should be skeptical of the A1121 identification of the XV part as well, since that one is also binary.
But I don't see anything else with a "21E" in it. It's like a DaVinci Code mystery.
Did you really zap both of the sensor boards, nothing to measure?
Last edited by glnc222 on October 17th, 2017, 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4613
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Help! Got your BotVac opened up? I need a part number!

Postby Tomcat05 » July 18th, 2015, 3:33 pm

glnc222 wrote:We should be skeptical of the A1121 identification of the XV part as well, since that one is also binary.
But I don't see anything else with a "21E" in it. It's like a DaVinci Code mystery.
Did you really zap both of the sensor boards, nothing to measure?


"The A132X family of linear Hall-effect sensors are optimized, sensitive, and tem-perature-stable. These ratiometric Hall-effect sensors provide a voltage output thatis proportional to the applied magnetic field."

I see a part number A1321EUA exists. Of course, the XV parts are available and plentiful - there is no real need to understand the components if the whole pcb can be purchased for next to nothing!

and yup, i ground into mine.
:doh:
Tomcat05
 
Posts: 19
Joined: July 14th, 2015, 4:46 pm

Re: Help! Got your BotVac opened up? I need a part number!

Postby glnc222 » July 18th, 2015, 9:16 pm

Ha! The A1321EUA is discontinued according to data sheet with recommended replacement the A1324 above for Botvac! Probably the same in XV and Botvac.
Looks like the XV assembly might be used in the Botvac, depending on fit and connectors. Same power supply and output range, maybe some response difference. Testing needed...

The USB calibration command SetDistanceCal is only for the IR proximity sensors, wall and cliff (same part).
Those officially measure distances in the first place, not vague magnetic fluxes affected by earth's magnetic field, cosmic rays, passing UFO's etc.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4613
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Help! Got your BotVac opened up? I need a part number!

Postby Tomcat05 » July 18th, 2015, 11:28 pm

I have discovered that hall sensors give me headaches. Must be alien technology at work.
Tomcat05
 
Posts: 19
Joined: July 14th, 2015, 4:46 pm

Re: Help! Got your BotVac opened up? I need a part number!

Postby Tomcat05 » July 23rd, 2015, 6:14 pm

That got it! My BotVac 85 is working great with the magnet sensors - even with the magnet under the carpeting.

IMG_0664.JPG
Botvac Hall Sensor for Magnetic Boundary


I ended up using Allegro A1324LUA-T. After scraping the lacquer off the traces of the pcb, I soldered the pins on the backside. I also used a spring heat sink to protect them.

elenco-soldering-heatsink.jpg
Heatsink for soldering the Hall Sensors


Here is the result:

IMG_0661.jpg
Replacement Hall Sensors for BotVac


What an education! Thanks to everyone who helped me solve this problem.
:thanks:
Tomcat05
 
Posts: 19
Joined: July 14th, 2015, 4:46 pm

Re: Help! Got your BotVac opened up? I need a part number!

Postby glnc222 » July 23rd, 2015, 9:08 pm

Congratulations!. Thanks for photos. The replacement part fixed the broken sensor IC, but what increased the sensitivity beyond the original to work on strips under carpet is not clear. Anything you can add about other alterations to the paddle board and its mounting is of interest. What sort of carpet is also relevant as some are probably too thick.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4613
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Help! Got your BotVac opened up? I need a part number!

Postby Tomcat05 » July 23rd, 2015, 9:48 pm

Some notes:

-You can see from the first photo that I had sanded the pcb clear back to the sensor pin holes. This was gleaned from Vink's mod at viewtopic.php?f=20&t=18568

-The hall sensors are new parts, obviously. They came from Newark.

-I put some thin foam on top of the paddle pcb board and ferrite slug to make sure they stayed in the bottom of the well. I also added a bit of foam around the screw holes along each side of the main pcb board to make sure it was pushed flat on assembly.

-My carpeting is actually a very dense pile. The pile height is 1/2". I believe the boundary magnet strip lies between the foam padding and the carpet backing.

-I know if I have trouble with a second Botvac, at some point in the future, I have a spare set of hall sensors to try.
Tomcat05
 
Posts: 19
Joined: July 14th, 2015, 4:46 pm

Re: Help! Got your BotVac opened up? I need a part number!

Postby glnc222 » July 26th, 2015, 4:01 pm

Botvac and XV Mag Sensor Assembly

Appears to be the same electronically, same 5v power supply and sensor, but not tested.
Not clear yet exactly why the Botvac board does not fit all the way down in the case mounting cavity.

I expect the capacitor is on the power leads for support of the internal oscillations, "chopper function" in the sensor, but cannot tell exactly. Common for many digital IC's, smooth the power supply, support high frequency surges.
Except maybe connector looks like the old part fits in the Botvac but very small clearances can matter.
The metal bar could have been just for support or for some shielding of the sensor, later found unnecessary (note capacitor moved closer to IC as well, maybe alternative filtering).
Old XV assembly, "cruz" rev.113 XV system and Botvac version. Photo's courtesy member Shirgal, Israel.
magsensor1.jpg
mag sensor assembly, courtesy member Shirgal

magsensor2.jpg
mag sensor assembly, courtesy member Shirgal
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4613
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Help! Got your BotVac opened up? I need a part number!

Postby Tomcat05 » July 26th, 2015, 9:11 pm

"The metal bar could have been just for support or for some shielding of the sensor, later found unnecessary"


The ferrous piece is not shown in Shirgal's first photo - it is missing here. It should sit in the location labelled "MAG SLUG"

I am thinking this Mag Slug may increase the flux density at the sensor??? I know there are plenty of applications where a "bias magnet" sits behind the sensor, but there is no indication our slug is magnetized - I saw no marking that one side or the other was a particular pole. Is our botvac slug simply non-magnetized ferrous material?
Tomcat05
 
Posts: 19
Joined: July 14th, 2015, 4:46 pm

Re: Help! Got your BotVac opened up? I need a part number!

Postby glnc222 » July 26th, 2015, 10:52 pm

"mag slug" -- unfamiliar term. It sometimes refers to a pattern of magnetization put into portions of cards to serve as an ID code, for special readers. https://books.google.com/books?id=D_h4AgAAQBAJ&pg=PA2124&lpg=PA2124&dq=magnetic+slugs&source=bl&ots=-lTmK5rslw&sig=YS2_5AnR76bFvrSf_pBbJUj3Z6w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CD0Q6AEwCGoVChMIxaXBq6H6xgIVgj8-Ch16_g25
Maybe that label identifies where such a pattern is placed on the board? Wonders never cease.

As for the ferrite, maybe another bit of expensive metal they found unnecessary.
Needs an engineer in the field.

[edit] Incidentally I hear the new Botvac-D has made no change in the mag sensor construction.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4613
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Help! Got your BotVac opened up? I need a part number!

Postby Tomcat05 » July 27th, 2015, 10:48 pm

The Botvac is proving to be a mixed blessing. I really like its wide brush, quietness and spinning side brush. But, this one wants to wedge itself under the couch. :naughty: The XV never did that. I ended up taking some corner molding and screwing it to the underside of the couch between the feet - this got him to stop creeping up under there!
Tomcat05
 
Posts: 19
Joined: July 14th, 2015, 4:46 pm

Re: Help! Got your BotVac opened up? I need a part number!

Postby glnc222 » July 28th, 2015, 2:29 am

So what is going on here?
It is hard to see in the photo but given board construction methods it looks like the XV and the Botvac boards both have a little board space beyond the face of the sensor IC, causing a gap in the bottom of the enclosure when the board fully touches the bottom of the enclosure.

What should also be observed is that the Botvac has a larger diameter of the brush cavity and brush guard bow, maybe slightly lifting the bottom of the mag sensor enclosure more off the floor. The adjustment made is less than a quarter inch.

So maybe the fix is just compensating for the difference in the cleaning head size.
There is also that metal piece on the XV sensor board but the effect on sensitivity is not known. Were it really a factor I would have to wonder why abandoned.

I do not have an XV to measure, but laying a ruler or similar board across the front and rear rollers shows where the floor is and can be used to measure distance to the bottom of the mag sensor enclosure squares. Looking for a very small difference similar to the material removed from the PC board end for the fix.
[edit] Botvac distance 12.7mm
magdistance.jpg
magdistance.jpg (9.66 KiB) Viewed 2265 times
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4613
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Help! Got your BotVac opened up? I need a part number!

Postby glnc222 » July 29th, 2015, 5:15 pm

The sensor distance measures the same on XV and Botvac 12.5mm, courtesy member Medtech.
magdistance2.jpg
magdistance2.jpg (24.16 KiB) Viewed 2262 times

Unless the XV sensor board has the IC flush with the end, unlikely, it looks like the metal bar on the XV plays some role in the sensitivity. Some ferrite part was mentioned on some Botvac boards but not others, no photo.
Anyway, lowering the Botvac board 3-4mm, flush with the board end, corrects the sensitivity to strips under carpet.

[edit] If that bar on the XV board is steel, it could be awfully easy to get it permanently magnetized just brushing against certain screw drivers, often magnetized deliberately to hold screws. That does not sound good for sensors.
Maybe the ferrite material is better? I am not familiar with the technical details.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4613
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Help! Got your BotVac opened up? I need a part number!

Postby glnc222 » July 29th, 2015, 7:23 pm

Mag Slug Revealed

The Botvac sensor does have a metal piece even bigger than the XV, and mirror finished. It is loose and held in place by spring foam glued to it.
magsensor3.JPG

magsensor4.JPG


I have to wonder if the problem with sensitivity found is on some used models in which the loose slug has been lost?
There is very little distance improvement from filing down the board end.

[edit] The finish is probably plastic coating often listed in catalogs. Ferrite cores are used for antennas so must be useful concentrating magnetic fields. Needs an engineer. If missing from the Botvac, there are many rods, mostly round, listed on ebay. Coating so they don't short out something and maybe don't rust?
Last edited by glnc222 on July 29th, 2015, 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4613
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Help! Got your BotVac opened up? I need a part number!

Postby glnc222 » July 29th, 2015, 8:26 pm

Botvac -- with the mag slug -- detects mag strip under a doormat.

magsensor5.JPG


However, under a deep pile rug the back may sink into the plush causing the front to be raised more, out of range of the mag strip.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4613
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Help! Got your BotVac opened up? I need a part number!

Postby Tomcat05 » July 30th, 2015, 7:24 am

In spite of Botvac working properly with boundary strip under the plush carpeting, he is VERY Tenacious about trying to get past it in the hallway. A single magnetic boundary marker would sometimes let him slip past. I slid a second piece of boundary under the carpeting and alongside the first piece - we will see if that keeps him in his pen?!
Tomcat05
 
Posts: 19
Joined: July 14th, 2015, 4:46 pm

Re: Help! Got your BotVac opened up? I need a part number!

Postby glnc222 » July 30th, 2015, 1:36 pm

Another style of use is temporary mag strips placed on top of carpet only when cleaning. The strips can get shoved around by the Neato in some cases. One way to make them more convenient to handle is to tape them to a thin strip of wood such as 1/8" hobby store plywood, modeling balsa wood or basswood, or some piece of stiff plastic, even aluminum. Then they need to be secured only at the ends, to floor or walls, sometimes molding in place. Makes for quick setting, removal, and stowage.

For a height transition I needed 1/4" molding strip to bring the mag up close enough to the sensor with the strip placed on the low side of the transition. A few widely separated scotch tape straps around the wood secures the mag strip to the wood. You can also color the strips with colored duck tape or even paint them.

One way to secure strips to floors is with 3M Command Adhesive Picture Hanging Strips, locking material better and thinner than velcro. The special glue strips remove without damaging surfaces by stretching foam.
To secure mag strips to carpets I have sometimes put sewing pins through them into the carpet, through the backing.

The vacuum robots are still limited in handling furnishings. The announced Dyson robot with track drive will advance the art but be very expensive. There isn't anything especially new in all these robots except costs coming down to a point making them practical, typical digital electronics advances.
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4613
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Help! Got your BotVac opened up? I need a part number!

Postby Medtech » July 30th, 2015, 3:17 pm

Because users attended clarifying the maximum distance from the magnetic tape to the sensor housing robot inform: XV in this distance with a standard 30mm magnetic tape, the tape from the crest to the level sensor is maximum at which almost always feels tape Hall sensor depending on the actual sensitivity in Rolling my XV-21 is not the right sensor catches, left more work out, the value of -50 in "parrots" :animals-duckie: .
It was enough to roll the robot at different heights above the tape and figure out the threshold. Robot can be used as a measure of magnetic tapes to determine the maximum height, but the Chinese are not suitable tape, as they have different magnetization.
At this distance Botvaca little lower, just 25mm, apparently due to the lack of a Hall sensor magnetic, metal bar.
To find out the actual maximum distance between the bars and the protective tape is now everyone can just look at the pictures.
Attachments
IMG_4203-45.jpg
IMG_4199-45.jpg
IMG_4197-45.jpg
Thank you GOOGLE translator for the freedom of communication.
User avatar
Medtech
Robot Addict
 
Posts: 133
Joined: October 17th, 2014, 3:12 pm
Location: Moscow Russia

Re: Help! Got your BotVac opened up? I need a part number!

Postby glnc222 » July 30th, 2015, 7:26 pm

At this distance Botvaca little lower, just 25mm, apparently due to the lack of a Hall sensor magnetic, metal bar.

The Botvac does have a metal (ferrite) bar. Fastened by clip instead of bolts. Post above http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewtopic.php?p=132003#p132003
glnc222
Robot Master
 
Posts: 4613
Joined: January 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Previous

Return to Neato Robotics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Franzl, vic7767 and 452 guests