Red Roomba 4100, Vacuum fan, problem, need suggestions

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Red Roomba 4100, Vacuum fan, problem, need suggestions

Postby numan » October 9th, 2008, 8:00 am

Interesting problem with a Red 4100 Roomba, I noticed this morning that the vacuum fan was not running. So I thought it could be the fan motor, so I took its bin off, put it on a Sage Roomba it worked just fine. I took the Sage Bin and put it on the Red Roomba and no vacuum, so now I know it is something with the Roomba itself. I ran all the diagnostics on the Red Roomba and it passed all tests except, the vacuum test fan test, fails on with either bin Green or the red the fan does not operate.

I took a digital volt meter and checked the voltage on the contacts on the Sage Roomba, where the contacts connect to the bin. Placing the Roomba, back into the diagnostic mode for the vacuum fan. The voltage output was 16.10 volts, when I checked the contacts on the Red Roomba the voltage is 11.25 volts. For the tests I used a known good battery, and used the same battery to test both Roombas. Some how I am losing about 5 volts getting back to the fan on the 4100 Roomba.

Would you guys have any suggestions on what I might check next?
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Postby numan » October 10th, 2008, 6:43 am

I took the main board out of the roomba, and placed a old main board that has a charging problem but other wise works. The fan works with the old board so somewhere the board has a voltage problem.

I have been planning to puchase the transistors for this old board just never got around to it. I was wondering if this problem would also be with u2 and u4. If so I could order 4 of these transistors and have a spare working board.

I need to order those transistors anyway for the old board. Next question does Roombaexchange sell those transistors looked at the site, and I did not see them listed but I might have overlooked them.

Thanks,
Last edited by numan on October 11th, 2008, 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ProTech Robotics » October 10th, 2008, 1:43 pm

The U2/U4 circuits do not control the fan motor at Q18. the voltage should be ~15v so you appear to have a voltage issue as you have guessed.. at least with Q18.
For U2/U4 we have both the STN3PF06 and STD10PF06 FETs instock they just aren't listed on the site yet. I will work on getting them in today at http://www.roombaexchange.com/products.php?cat=15
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Postby Gordon » October 10th, 2008, 3:39 pm

numan wrote:I took the main board out of the roomba, and placed a old main board that has a charging problem but other wise works. The fan works with the old board so somewhere the board has a voltage problem...
See if this Schematic7 diagram of the Impeller-Motor Driver circuit helps:
viewtopic.php?p=29586#p29586
Either Q18 or Q35 may be suffering. If your problem is due to a failed transistor, then my bet would be on Q35 being faulty (since it handles more current).

Both positions use the same, S8050, NPN junction transistor, which probably sell for less than a dollar, and both will be much easier to R&R than will the U2/U4 FETs you plan to replace! To save on trouble-shooting efforts, you might try replacing both (Q18 & Q35) at once.

The S8050 is packaged in the TO-92 case (just google 'TO-92 case', if you need a picture). Q18 & Q35 are mounted close to J17.
-----------------------------------
P.S.: I see that php is not presenting images in full resolution! If details that you would like to see are fuzzy, just refer to the next post for instructions.
Last edited by Gordon on September 18th, 2011, 11:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Fraggboy » October 10th, 2008, 3:48 pm

TIP: All one has to do to view the full picture is click on the image to view it full size..
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Postby Gordon » October 10th, 2008, 4:33 pm

kewell!! Thanks Chris! Now why didn't I know that? :shock:
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Postby Fraggboy » October 10th, 2008, 4:54 pm

Your welcome Gordon. I'm sure you knew about it. You were just side tracked with everything else you were doing.. :wink:
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As always get help on this site.

Postby numan » October 11th, 2008, 8:06 am

Gordon,

As always, you have great advice and you hit the nail on the head, Q35 looks like it is the one that has went bad, because it has gotten hot enough to make the plastic on J17 discolored, it has taken some heat.

I looked for the transistors on the web and so far it looks like I have to buy a bunch just to get two. I wonder if RadioShack has these. I guess the only thing I would have to be sure of is to make sure, that I get a transister large enough to handle the current.

And for some reason I can't get to Roombaexchange to order the other transistors. Chris if you read this post it could be my computer, or maybe your site is down. Do you sell the Q35 transistor as well? If so I could just order all four at one time.

Thanks guys, you are the best.

Edit post,

I think I answered my own question about the Q35, I think this one at Radioshack will work it has the correct case type, and is rated at 600mw, I am guessing this will work. Here is the link http://www.radioshack.com/product/index ... age=search
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Postby ProTech Robotics » October 11th, 2008, 8:43 am

Here is a link to the S8050 transistor to replace Q18 and Q35 at Mouser http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDet ... blmw%3d%3d and you should be able to just buy a couple if needed. We don't have them at this time and our server is being updated so it is down for a few hours today.
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Re: As always get help on this site.

Postby Gordon » October 11th, 2008, 12:25 pm

numan wrote:...Q35 looks like it is the one that has went bad, because it has gotten hot enough to make the plastic on J17 discolored, it has taken some heat.
Great! That was easy!

Now, why do you suppose Q35 suffered so severely? Could that particular xstr have been a badly made device--one with a latent defect, hence destined to fail (even in a well designed application)? Of course. Or, did Q35 suffer because it was dissipating too much power? Of course. Wouldn't it be nice to know that your replacement xstr will not suffer the same fate? If it were my electronics, I would say "of course".

To gain a little assurance, that the new Q35 won't fail due to overload/overheating, there are a couple checks you can try. Things like: a) verify impeller-motor current is about nominal, and b) finger-feel new-Q35 while running self-test #13, to ensure Q35's case is cool enough to not burn your finger-tip. If check (b) reveals a very hot Q35, shut down and replace Q18. Repeat (a) & (b), to make sure of proper functioning. If interested in these items, and need more detail, let me know.
I looked for the transistors on the web and ... wonder if RadioShack has these. ... Radioshack ... has the correct case type, and is rated at 600mw, I am guessing this will work. ...
What I saw at the Rad-Shack link is a 2N2222 xstr. It would be OK as a Q18 replacement, but not for Q35 (because the S8050 can handle more power; it has a one-watt, MAX, rating).
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Postby numan » October 13th, 2008, 8:37 am

Gordon,

I took the Q35 out of the board that does not charge correctly, and soldered it into the 4100 board, and tested it for about 10 minutes, the transistor got warm but not hot to the touch, and the fan ran correctly. I plan on ordering the correct transistors and replace both of them on the board.

One thing I did find out my eyes are not as good as they once were, I sure had a hard time seeing well enough to do the soldering.

Now I need to order the transistors for 4100 board and get another transistor for the board that does not charger correctly, and the transistors from roombaexchange for the charging issue, and I will have a spare board.

Thanks again, guys for all the help. Going over to Roombaexhange and order the transistors now.
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Postby numan » October 13th, 2008, 8:54 am

Chris,

You should have my order, and thanks for putting those transistors on your site where I could find them. As always thanks all you help here on the board.
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Postby ProTech Robotics » October 14th, 2008, 9:50 am

Thank you, your order will be shipped by tomorrow.
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Postby numan » October 27th, 2008, 9:22 am

Chris,

Just wanted to say I got my parts, just have not had the time to do the repair work. But just wanted to say thanks for the fast ship. Do you have any good tips about soldering these in? Other than trying not to burn my fingers lol. Thanks always a pleasure, doing buisness with you.
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Postby ProTech Robotics » October 27th, 2008, 11:11 am

Dtief posted a link to a photo set showing the installation of the STD10PF06 FETs that will help http://home.comcast.net/~davidtief/room ... grade.html

You may also want to look through the MFG datasheets
http://www.st.com/stonline/books/pdf/docs/6553.pdf
http://www.st.com/stonline/books/pdf/docs/7515.pdf

Other then that, dont overheat them, make sure you and your work area are grounded to aviod ESD [Electrostatic discharge] and don't force the old U2/U4 circuits off the circuit board.
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Re: Red Roomba 4100, Vacuum fan, problem, need suggestions

Postby koszul » February 24th, 2009, 1:23 am

Hello all.

I happen to have a very similar problem with my Roomba Discovery (4200 series - 4210 specifically, would be my guess). The fan is not working - and the diagnostic test failed when it gotten to the fan test. I checked the fan itself, and it is working, so my next guess was something related to the circuitry. And here I am :)

How different are the Sage/Red boards from the Discovery ones? Is it that the same transistors that are faulty in numan's case exist on the Discovery's board? If not, can you suggest what to look for?

In my case, it wasn't really sudden, but rather my 2-year old jumping on the poor Roomba, and I can understand why it would overheat its little transistors (I would too, I suppose) ...

Thanks bunches.

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Re: Red Roomba 4100, Vacuum fan, problem, need suggestions

Postby mfortuna » February 24th, 2009, 8:01 am

The boards are very similar for 400 series but differ based on the castor versus fixed wheel and the number of dirt detectors. The latter may only be a different connector. The circuitry for the blower should be the same amongst models.

Make sure your blower contacts didn't get bent when the two year old jumped on it. The blades and receptacle are on the right side of the roomba.
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Re: Red Roomba 4100, Vacuum fan, problem, need suggestions

Postby koszul » February 25th, 2009, 10:40 am

mfortuna wrote:Make sure your blower contacts didn't get bent when the two year old jumped on it. The blades and receptacle are on the right side of the roomba.


I'm positive the blower contacts are fine. It was one of the very first things I checked. So far I've been resisting taking the Roomba apart further than taking the cover and bumper off, since I had no idea what could be wrong other than contacts - but I checked those and all is fine (there is no interruption between the motherboard and the motor). Conclusion is that it must be the motherboard; if the boards are similar at the blower circuitry level that's good news, I could replace those transistors.

Thanks.

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Re: Red Roomba 4100, Vacuum fan, problem, need suggestions

Postby Gordon » February 25th, 2009, 1:30 pm

koszul wrote:... I've been resisting ... taking the cover and bumper off, since I had no idea what could be wrong... Conclusion is that it must be the motherboard; if the boards are similar at the blower circuitry level that's good news, I could replace those transistors. ...
Only one xstr-switch is involved. It is Q35, a TO-92 package located between J17 & J18 (~173mm from left edge of PCB). Schematic_7 (Schematic7, Schematic#7) may be helpful:
Image
Q35's pin-pads are arrayed columnar and with collector uppermost, and emitter at bottom. Quarters are tight in that area, but active measurement is possible if you have a suitable probe. It'd be a good idea to make sure you have base-drive from driver-xstr Q18 (same type as Q35, and buried below J17) before doing a Q35 R&R.

BTW, this info is based on 2004 vintage Disco H/W. More recent production may have components slid around a bit on the face of the PCB even though no circuit revision has been made.
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Re: Red Roomba 4100, Vacuum fan, problem, need suggestions

Postby koszul » February 26th, 2009, 12:29 am

Thanks Gordon! Wow, nothing escapes your eye. I was in fact ready to ask you in the Scooba discussion on the other side of this forum for a hint, but you were faster.

I will start digging into the Roomba this weekend (following, of course, the info you posted on your webpage), and I will see if I can get to that transistor, and check if that is really the faulty part. If yes, will still have to order it ... poor robot.

Thanks - one more time - for the schematics!

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