There are TWO different reasons for the Clean Brush error

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Re: How many New Neato owners are getting the CLEAN BRUSH er

Postby InTime69 » January 2nd, 2011, 12:24 pm

pjnagel wrote:
Just to be specific: was your problem that the robot would not get started with its mission at all, and that it complained "my brush is stuck" before it got going, or was your problem just frequent intermittent "brush overloaded" messages without visible cause while the robot was doing its work?

My problem is that the robot doesn't get going at all. And I removed the brush, and shone a flashlight down the rubber belt and could see hair wrapped around the brush motor gear's axle. Could you please do me a favour and check for the same on your robot?

If the problem is friction at the brush motor end, I can't help but think that lubing the brass bearing will just temporarily postpone the recurrence of the problem a bit.

It might be good advice in general, but I doesn't sound like a solution for my case in the specific.


It wouldn't start at all... Like you said, lubing the bushings helped but only temporarily since there was in fact hair rapped around the motor sprocket. I therefore attempted to remove the hair with a tweezer but it didn't quite work so I had to cut the hair first with an "exacto" knife. I was able to remove about 90% of the hair with the tweezers after cutting it off the sprocket/gear. My Neoto is now working very well but I figure that more hair will get trapped again near the motor and I will have to tweeze it out again in a few weeks...

If ever you decide to try this, be very careful to not cut the belt since it is very close to the motor. I was lucky and didn't damage the belt at all..

Good luck with your Neato. I hope you get it working again...

Ian
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Re: How many New Neato owners are getting the CLEAN BRUSH er

Postby pjnagel » January 3rd, 2011, 6:31 am

InTime69 wrote:Good luck with your Neato. I hope you get it working again...


The supplier RMA'ed it back to Neato.

When the replacement unit comes, I will thoroughly vacuum the house before starting the new Neato, and only use the new Neato as a tool to prevent a "vacuuming backlog" from building up.
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Re: How many New Neato owners are getting the CLEAN BRUSH er

Postby Cheaperthanyou » January 21st, 2011, 3:01 pm

Count me in on this list as well. I was getting the overheat message and then the clean brush error. So I have sent a message to Neato and now i am waiting for their reply.

I then found this thread and tried a little lubricant. I used some Boeshield T-9 that i had kicking around to lube the brass bushings. When i 1st returned Neato to my low pile carpet the same clean brush error message returned. So then i tried Neato on my ceramic tile floor and it worked up until i got the overheat message. After letting it cool down it was then able to complete the floor including a small room with the same carpet. Using the lubricant seemed to help but I'm not expecting this to last for long :roll:
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Re: How many New Neato owners are getting the CLEAN BRUSH er

Postby Cheaperthanyou » January 22nd, 2011, 3:11 pm

Well the lubricant did not help for long. Later on after a recharge it stopped a couple of times because of a brush overheat and now its saying "My brush is stuck. Please free it from debris". I have played with it enough and Neato Corp. is agreeing that it needs to be replaced.

This is seems like great service but obviously i don't want to replace this thing every 3 months. As as owner of 3 irobot machines i understand that these machines take periodic maintenance. Neato if your listening you need to redesign this so that the customer can perform more maintenance that would hopefully solve more issues that will arise. I'm very glad that i purchased it from HS because unfortunately i can see it going back for keeps one day. :(
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Re: How many New Neato owners are getting the CLEAN BRUSH er

Postby garthanthaclops » January 31st, 2011, 2:56 pm

Has anyone discovered a solution to this problem that isn't returning it or taking it apart regularly to get the hair out? Lube worked for a short while, but that isn't helping anymore.

If not,

Neato: Would it be possible to get a firmware update that just includes a change to the sensitivity of the brush RPM setting? Or are there any other workarounds not listed in the thread?
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Re: How many New Neato owners are getting the CLEAN BRUSH er

Postby justjc » February 15th, 2011, 5:04 am

Only time I got the Clean Brush error was when it found a sock I hadn't moved(was hiding under the bed), so hardly an error :-)
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Re: How many New Neato owners are getting the CLEAN BRUSH er

Postby pjnagel » February 15th, 2011, 6:21 am

My RMA replacement robot arrived today, so let's see how it goes this time. Kudos to Neato for their customer support.

This time I'll do a frequent visual inspection of the brush motor's driving gear, so that if the problem recurs I can at least give Neato feedback as to the time frames within which it builds up.

I think the lengthy interval between when I sent the robot back till now has more to do with South African Customs & the fact that the local reshipper uses sea freight, not Neato themselves.
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Re: How many New Neato owners are getting the CLEAN BRUSH er

Postby pjnagel » February 15th, 2011, 6:27 am

Has anyone discovered a solution to this problem that isn't returning it


Speaking from blissful ignorance of the electromechanical engineering that would be involved, I think the ideal solution would be for the next hardware version of the robot to do away with the brush motor belt. Instead, the brush itself should have motor magnetics integrated into it, and the robot housing around part of the brush should surround it in magnetic coils that turn it, i.e. the brush itself is the brush motor's rotor and cleaning it removes it from the surrounding stator.
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Re: How many New Neato owners are getting the CLEAN BRUSH er

Postby pjnagel » February 15th, 2011, 6:29 am

Neato can pay me for my idea by making me a beta tester of all their next robots.
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Re: How many New Neato owners are getting the CLEAN BRUSH er

Postby sageman » February 15th, 2011, 1:18 pm

pjnagel wrote:
Speaking from blissful ignorance of the electromechanical engineering that would be involved, I think the ideal solution would be for the next hardware version of the robot to do away with the brush motor belt. Instead, the brush itself should have motor magnetics integrated into it, and the robot housing around part of the brush should surround it in magnetic coils that turn it, i.e. the brush itself is the brush motor's rotor and cleaning it removes it from the surrounding stator.


so the brush bar is the spindle in the middle ?

if so a brushless idea might work better as i dont think anything is touching the spindle

what im concerned about is deformation of the brush bar also torque and rpm and power consumption may not make it viable but you never know
400/disco disassembly's (everything down to the PCB)
http://www.robotreviews.com/wiki/400disco-disassembly

one day many years from now a person will say "right I'll just ROOMBA downstairs" instead of hoover
oh wait I already do :)

main bot: neato xv-15 (Europe xv-11)
to sell (one day): roomba sage and silver (both 400's)
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Re: How many New Neato owners are getting the CLEAN BRUSH er

Postby pjnagel » February 15th, 2011, 1:50 pm

if so a brushless idea might work better as i dont think anything is touching the spindle


AFAIK the rotating part of an electrical motor and the coils surrounding it that generate the magnetic fields do not touch, so if the robot brush itself is the rotor, it also need not touch the coils around it - which can then be sealed away in the housing around it.

On the other had, I am not that kind of engineer. Most likely all kinds of things, like the distance of the gap between the rotor and stator, affect a motor's performance. Also, this configuration would have to be custom-built for the Neato, instead of using a motor off-the-shelf.

I'm still curious if something like this is possible though.
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Re: How many New Neato owners are getting the CLEAN BRUSH er

Postby sageman » February 15th, 2011, 2:03 pm

i think we better move this to xv-11 v2 thread
400/disco disassembly's (everything down to the PCB)
http://www.robotreviews.com/wiki/400disco-disassembly

one day many years from now a person will say "right I'll just ROOMBA downstairs" instead of hoover
oh wait I already do :)

main bot: neato xv-15 (Europe xv-11)
to sell (one day): roomba sage and silver (both 400's)
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Re: How many New Neato owners are getting the CLEAN BRUSH er

Postby joeygil » February 23rd, 2011, 3:41 pm

pjnagel wrote:
Has anyone discovered a solution to this problem that isn't returning it


Speaking from blissful ignorance of the electromechanical engineering that would be involved, I think the ideal solution would be for the next hardware version of the robot to do away with the brush motor belt. Instead, the brush itself should have motor magnetics integrated into it, and the robot housing around part of the brush should surround it in magnetic coils that turn it, i.e. the brush itself is the brush motor's rotor and cleaning it removes it from the surrounding stator.



I would think the problem with this is the lack of gearing. The small DC motor probably has more speed than torque, and the gearing lets you convert that excess speed into torque for the brush. Magnetic "slippage" wouldn't be such an issue at the motor where torque isn't the problem, but I would be at the brush itself.

In other words, I would expect the brush to get easily stopped in the above proposed plan.
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Re: How many New Neato owners are getting the CLEAN BRUSH er

Postby sageman » February 23rd, 2011, 4:05 pm

personally i think its the extra load heating up the motor and the sensor making the robot think the brush needs cleaning (which in a way it does) as far as
i know the brush doesn't actually stop i suppose that would bring up the "stuck brush" error
400/disco disassembly's (everything down to the PCB)
http://www.robotreviews.com/wiki/400disco-disassembly

one day many years from now a person will say "right I'll just ROOMBA downstairs" instead of hoover
oh wait I already do :)

main bot: neato xv-15 (Europe xv-11)
to sell (one day): roomba sage and silver (both 400's)
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Re: How many New Neato owners are getting the CLEAN BRUSH er

Postby piokrza » February 23rd, 2011, 4:43 pm

joeygil wrote:I would think the problem with this is the lack of gearing. The small DC motor probably has more speed than torque, and the gearing lets you convert that excess speed into torque for the brush. Magnetic "slippage" wouldn't be such an issue at the motor where torque isn't the problem, but I would be at the brush itself.

In other words, I would expect the brush to get easily stopped in the above proposed plan.


And that is why gears have the advantage over belt (or not :?: )
past: Samsung SR8855 (bad sw) Samsung SR8895 (bad rotor) Neato XV-11/XV-15 Roomba 780 (bad battery) Scooba 385 Roomba 530 2x Scooba 230 (broken bladder), Samsung SR8980, Samsung VR10F71
current: Roomba 620 (bad CHM; repaired u/warranty) Scooba 330 Scooba 230 Hobot-168
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Re: How many New Neato owners are getting the CLEAN BRUSH er

Postby alfa756 » February 24th, 2011, 9:57 pm

Unfortunately I am on my third NEATO in less then 4 months. The first one lasted a little longer then the second which gave me the brush stuck error in about 6 weeks of bi-weekly use. Customer service is excellent and promptly sent me the replacement, but today after the first use of new robot I inspected the motor through the little gap for the belt and noticed that there is hair wrapped around the motor already! As the space is very tight I was unable to clean it and now just have to wait for a brush motor stuck error again.
It looks like it is clearly a design flaw as it consistently reoccurring problem. After looking at pictures of disassembled NEATO I do not believe there is an easy way of cleaning it without taking most of the robot apart and removing the brush motor with it's plastic hood. I hope NEATO will fix it in the next version of the ROBOT because it is a first truly helpful thing to have at home.
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Re: How many New Neato owners are getting the CLEAN BRUSH er

Postby piokrza » February 25th, 2011, 7:09 am

alfa756 could you tell where you order your? And all other which has the same problem (changing from 1-3 for new one) - where you order yours? I'm getting frustrated more and more... :?
past: Samsung SR8855 (bad sw) Samsung SR8895 (bad rotor) Neato XV-11/XV-15 Roomba 780 (bad battery) Scooba 385 Roomba 530 2x Scooba 230 (broken bladder), Samsung SR8980, Samsung VR10F71
current: Roomba 620 (bad CHM; repaired u/warranty) Scooba 330 Scooba 230 Hobot-168
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Re: How many New Neato owners are getting the CLEAN BRUSH er

Postby pjnagel » February 25th, 2011, 3:32 pm

My replacement is in its second week now, and it also already has hair wrapped around the belt driving gear. I noticed it's not completing the house on a single charge anymore either, most likely due to the extra load on the brush motor.
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Re: How many New Neato owners are getting the CLEAN BRUSH er

Postby sageman » February 25th, 2011, 3:52 pm

pjnagel wrote:most likely due to the extra load on the brush motor.


most likley
400/disco disassembly's (everything down to the PCB)
http://www.robotreviews.com/wiki/400disco-disassembly

one day many years from now a person will say "right I'll just ROOMBA downstairs" instead of hoover
oh wait I already do :)

main bot: neato xv-15 (Europe xv-11)
to sell (one day): roomba sage and silver (both 400's)
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Re: How many New Neato owners are getting the CLEAN BRUSH er

Postby garthanthaclops » February 25th, 2011, 6:32 pm

Does anyone with some engineering chops want to see if there's a way to improve or replace the motor, or better yet convert it to to a tube driven enclosed system so no hair gets in there in the first place?

When I get some free time I'm going to remove the heat sensor from the motor and see if it stops reporting it as "stuck" (or rather, overheated as was previously suggested). If that fails, and on one else is already trying it, I'll see if I can make an amateur stab at an enclosed system with some bevel gears and such.
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