Mod for new Scooba Power Supply - 240v

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Mod for new Scooba Power Supply - 240v

Post by chappy »

I have modded quite a few Roomba and Scooba power supplies without any issues. I have noticed that iRobot have now changed the pcb for the Scooba Power Supply. In the old power supplies I used to change the 100uf 200v capacitor to a 400v 100uf. They are now using 2 * 200v 47uf capacitors in parralel.

I have tried the following:

1) replaced the two capacitors with 2 * 400v 47uf capacitors
The Scooba charged the first few times and the failed. The charger light doesn't come on. The charger was also making a bussing sound.

2) replaced the two capacitors with 1 * 400v 100uf capacitor (This was on a another new charger as the first one is now dead)
The Scooba charged the first few times and the failed. The charger light doesn't come on. The charger was also making a bussing sound.

Has anyone been able to mod these power supplies? I have attached some photos of the new design.
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Re: Mod for new Scooba Power Supply - 240v

Post by Fraggboy »

chappy,

Welcome to Robot Reviews!!

Unfortunately I can't help you with the modification, but I'm sure someone will help you out. I am going to move this to the proper forum..
Chris

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Re: Mod for new Scooba Power Supply - 240v

Post by Gordon »

chappy wrote:I have tried the following:

1) replaced the two capacitors with 2 * 400v 47uf capacitors.
The Scooba charged the first few times and the{n} failed. The charger light doesn't come on. ...

2) replaced the two capacitors with 1 * 400v 100uf capacitor ...
...and got the same results. Two PSUs are dead! Seems like something is being over-stressed, eh? Has there been any change in other high-voltage components? Are diodes D1 thru D4 still 1N4007? What switcher-IC model is being used? How healthy are those e-caps you've been trying out? Are they low ESR types?

Next time you have a spare PSU to play with you might try using only ONE 47uF e-cap. I'm going along with rj5555's notion that by jumping to twice the mains voltage you need to halve capacitance to maintain the same peak charge (coulombs) on the storage cap (while also storing twice the energy (joules) in the half-size cap).
Has anyone been able to mod these power supplies?
Your post about a new SPSU-design is the first one I have seen come along! You are the vanguard!
Last edited by Gordon on May 21st, 2009, 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mod for new Scooba Power Supply - 240v

Post by chappy »

Hi Gordon. Thanks for the prompt response. D1 thru D4 are still 1N4007. The TOP246YN has been changed to another switcher which is the 1200P60. When you say use one 47u cap do you mean a 47uf 400v cap? I do you some more unmodified power supplies which I can try. I was just a bit worried about blowing up another one :)
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Re: Mod for new Scooba Power Supply - 240v

Post by Gordon »

chappy wrote:...The TOP246YN has been changed to another switcher which is the 1200P60.
Find a data sheet for that IC and study it. Also look for App-Notes relative to it. Make sure it will support nearly 400-volt operation. If iRobot can save a nickle by building with a lower voltage device, it will do so!
When you say use one 47u cap do you mean a 47uf 400v cap? ...
At least 400Vdc.
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Re: Mod for new Scooba Power Supply - 240v

Post by Gordon »

Chappy: WHOA!! DO NOT DO ANY ADDITIONAL ACTIVE TRIALS ON ONE OF THOSE REVISED (newer) SPSUs!!

I took a few minutes to google a data-sheet (On-Semi's is good) for that DIP8 package. I see now that it + the device that is bolted to the heat-sink is what has replaced the TOP-Spot IC. I also see that doubling the mains voltage into this system is very likely to have damaged the 1200P60 device.

It is my estimate that for anyone to proceed further will require them to ferret out some info from the as-built SPSU (to learn things like: what MOSFET is being used as the power switch, what its characteristics are, whether more than two windings exist on the step-down xfmr, and whether any of the special VCC {1200P60's Vcc} limiting tactics have been designed into the circuit) to then permit some engineering adjustments to be done.

I'm fairly certain that iRbt is saving more than a nickel on each copy of this PSU!
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Re: Mod for new Scooba Power Supply - 240v

Post by mfortuna »

The data sheet shows a universal circuit that includes a 400V cap after the bridge and connected to the 1200P60. It also mentions a 450V maximum on the HV input. It seems Irobot could have designed a universal charger.

Gordon, I'm more of a digital guy. Can you explain the damage scenarios? Is the DC output voltage determined by the zener voltage plus the drop through the opto-isolator?
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Re: Mod for new Scooba Power Supply - 240v

Post by chappy »

Thanks Gordon. I won't try and do any modding on those power supplies until someone has investigated this fully. I am a qualified Electrical Engineer however the last time I worked on circuit boards was way back in university which means I have forgotton almost everything :)

I noticed that the model number on the back of the power supply is now "L13143" instead of the old "13143". It was also dated 081110. I fear the new Scooba power supplies may all look like this one - hope not.
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Re: Mod for new Scooba Power Supply - 240v

Post by Gordon »

mfortuna wrote:The data sheet shows a universal circuit that includes a 400V cap after the bridge and connected to the 1200P60. It also mentions a 450V maximum on the HV input.
It does indeed, but the circuit must be configured to accommodate 450Vdc applied to pin-8. More below.
It seems Irobot could have designed a universal charger.
Of course it could. It could also have made the Fast Charger function on 110-250VAC mains. The Company did that with its Rapid Charger product,and it had a chance to see what it cost. Thereafter, it refrained from doing more than was necessary!
...Can you explain the damage scenarios?
As I alluded, the circuit must be first rev-engineered to see what is there. W/o knowing the high-voltage section's wiring, a whole lot of guessing is required. Notice in the (On-Semiconductor ...) Figure 1. "Typical Application" schematic there is a TBD-value resistor connecting the rectified-mains voltage to pin-8, And from there an asterisk takes you to this note below the diagram: " * Please refer to the application information section". You can get a pretty good idea of the trouble a designer must endure to make this device work well by reading that application information section.

Suffice it to say: a) VCC (pin-6) for the 1200P60 appears to be developed by passing the HV on pin-8 (see On-Semi. Fig. 2) through an internal constant-current section, and through undefined impedance to GND, b) VCC_max = 16Vdc, c) by doubling HV, the developed VCC should double, and d) if VCC was anywhere near 10Vdc for the 120VAC design, it would go over the top when 240VAC mains powered the HV-section. If exceeding that "16Vdc MAX" means the IC is fried, or simply won't work over 16V, I don't know.

But, notice these other things. Figure-2 shows there is an overload function. Maybe that has saved the 1200P60! By reading (in the application section below the graphs) about "Dynamic Self−Supply" (DSS) you may see there is another way of handling a large HV value by using a "Dstart" diode.

You will also see words like "with an auxiliary winding. It will automatically disconnect the internal startup source and the IC will be fully self−supplied from this winding." as another means for accommodating a high supply voltage. I am doubting that iRbt followed this path because omitting the tertiary winding from the xfnr is one oi the apparent cost-savings the Company would use.
Is the DC output voltage determined by the zener voltage plus the drop through the opto-isolator {LED}?
Yep, that method is quite typical. Roomba's FC ckt is not that simple, and I expect the SPSU's is also more complex, but basically that's the idea.
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Re: Mod for new Scooba Power Supply - 240v

Post by chappy »

Hi Guys. I just noticed that the component 1200P60 is the same one as used on the Roomba 500. The charging circuitry looks very similar. There is a picture of the 500 series PSU at:
http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewtopic.php?t=6603
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Re: Mod for new Scooba Power Supply - 240v

Post by Gordon »

chappy wrote:... I just noticed that the component 1200P60 is the same one as used on the Roomba 500. The charging circuitry looks very similar. ...
Thanks for dragging that thread out of the archive. Yesterday I was thinking I had seen a PSU board with a DIP in the HV section (wondering what that IC could be, at that time), and thought it must be a 5XX-PSU. I looked for some reference on my PC, but found no handy link and did not want to take time with searches, so gave up.

It occurs to me that the few (reporting) modifiers of 5XX PSUs generally met with success because Roomba requires less charging power than Scooba. You even met with limited 'success', i.e., having achieved some charging of batteries before the PSU said "enough"! Since it took some period of time for the PSU to quit, I'm thinking that time-stretch to failure is more likely due to thermal stress, than due to an over-voltage stress of some semiconductor (such as U1). Over-voltage could have bothered the e-cap (probably 10uF, possibly only 16V) connected to U1-5. Whatever went wrong is not self-correcting via a power-cycle, right? So the damage is permanent.

Reverse-engineering the high-voltage section could give insight in how to proceed. Limiting that job to the HV section should be a minimum effort (the real work is in extracting a circuit diagram for the low-voltage portion!). With a HV-section schematic in hand, you might be able to figure out what got over-stressed, then set out to mend it. That is: Make the PSU work OK with 120VAC mains input.

The 1200P60 is available from http://www.mouser.com (# 863-NCP1200P60G) at $1.16ea. If you can't verify that 10uF (on U1-5) to be working, buy another one and install it with the U1 replacement. Also buy a 1N4007, just in case you get around to trying the following 240VAC conversion idea.

Once you have it working, you might be in a position to shot-gun a fix for 240VAC operation. Its looking to me like this method -- given in On-Semi's data-sheet -- might be worth a try:
OnSemiSaysAddAdiode.jpg
OnSemiSaysAddAdiode.jpg (64.36 KiB) Viewed 23557 times
The "C3, 4.7uF, 400V" e-cap would be your C2, 47uF, 400V revision.
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Re: Mod for new Scooba Power Supply - 240v

Post by colinsfotoelectrico »

I'm going along with rj5555's notion that by jumping to twice the mains voltage you need to halve capacitance to maintain the same peak charge (coulombs) on the storage cap (while also storing twice the energy (joules) in the half-size cap).
Interestlingly, the genuine universal 110/220V roomba 500 series chargers still use a 47uF 400V capacitor. I've got quite a few here in my UK stock to look at :wink:
Fortunately or unfortunately, as the case may be, I also have several of the latest "L13143" 110V US scooba model to play with. Gordon's input is certainly invaluable. I might just try the suggested use of a diode onto pin 8, once I'ver plucked up the courage and have run the available info past the R&D guys that do most of my conversions these days. My own great future in electronics is certainly well behind me :cry:
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Re: Mod for new Scooba Power Supply - 240v

Post by red_sword_fish »

I also did the same thing on my 5800 chager, I changed 2*400V 47uF e-Caps and the Voltage Sensed Resistor to 14D391, and replaced 2* 39k Resistors into 1*174k for lowe down the power supply of IC 1200P, after these, I tried to run it on 220V AC. and the green LED goes on...

but several minutes later, the LED stops lighting... I test the pin out of charger, 1 and 3 still output 22.5V DC , but the pin 2 has no signal, and the Green LED can not light on. the swith power module still works, and lost charge control function.
so, I could not charge my new Scooba ... so sad.

Who can help me? I found this forum and hope could get some new info.
Last edited by red_sword_fish on May 22nd, 2009, 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mod for new Scooba Power Supply - 240v

Post by Gordon »

I will not be able to directly help you make your SPSU function properly, but I will provide some links to SPSU data which you may not have seen, and I can ask some questions and make recommendations that may put you on a recovery trail.
red_sword_fish wrote: I ... replaced 2* 39k Resistors into 1*174k for lowe down the power supply of IC 1200P, ...
How did you know, or determine that such a resistance change might work?
...after these, I tried to run it on 220V AC. and the green LED goes on...but several minus later, the LED stops lighting...
When that green pilot LED goes dark I would have guessed that not many volts would have been measured where 22Vdc is expected. Yet, you claim:
I test the pin out of charger, 1 and 3 also output 22V DC...
...so that is an unexpected result! I would have to view a schematic diagram of that low-voltage section to see why that might be. Have you reverse engineered any of the SPSU's sections?
..., but the pin 2 has no signal, and the Green LED can not light on.
When measuring the SPSU separate from the robot, there will be no voltage on pin-2, it is a signal sink, not a source. See this post for the only (which I know of) published data about that control signal:

Post containing some CNTRL-voltage data:
http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewto ... 337#p40337

Also, here is a link to a post containing SPSU to main-elex (inside Scooba) wiring:
http://www.robotreviews.com/chat/viewto ... ote]...the swith power module still works, and ...[/quote]Have you read and understood the NCP1200's Dynamic Self-Supply requirements (in the APPLICATIONS INFORMATION section of On-Semi's data sheet for this device)? If not, I would say that is an essential first step which should put you in a position to measure the dynamic supply voltage, Vcc, on pin-6 of the device to ensure proper operation. This measurement requires use of an O-scope.
Last edited by Gordon on May 20th, 2009, 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mod for new Scooba Power Supply - 240v

Post by red_sword_fish »

Thank you Gordon!

I replaced the resistors to 173k because I had no data sheet about 1200P, and I calculated it base the Vcc for 1200 not higher than 140V. Now, I found the datasheet about 1200P, and the VH can bearing a maxium 400V DC, So, I
changed it back now.


I found the problem is on D11 and make it reborn ,My charger is working on 220VAC now.

......

So, everything you need do is clear now:
Replacing with : 2*47uF 400V E-Caps, 1*14D391.
then, replacing D11 to 1N4001 or 1N400*.
Last edited by red_sword_fish on May 22nd, 2009, 8:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mod for new Scooba Power Supply - 240v

Post by mfortuna »

So, everything you need do is clear now:
Replacing with : 2*47uF 400V E-Caps, 1*14D391.
then, replacing D11 to 1N4001 or 1N400*.
What are the before and after values of the sense resistor?

What was D11 originally?

Thanks
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Re: Mod for new Scooba Power Supply - 240v

Post by red_sword_fish »

mfortuna wrote:

What are the before and after values of the sense resistor?

What was D11 originally?

Thanks
I deleted the modification details after I found there was no people interesting in this article, I don't know how you
get this information. now, I recovered my last txtout.

the old sense resistor is 14D271, I replaced it with a 14D391.
because we did not rewiring transformer, the charging controlor may get a higher power supply than it worked on 110VAC before, the controllor has a 7805 for get stable 5VDC power supply, but D11 can not bearing big current, and it may break if you directly use 220VAC power supply.

So, replace D11 with 1N400* will resolve this problem, and the mod recharger now can accept 110VAC and 220VAC.

---Wuhan, China.

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Re: Mod for new Scooba Power Supply - 240v

Post by Gordon »

red_sword_fish wrote:... I found there was no people interesting in this article,
Yes, this topic may be cool, but your findings may revive the interest of some who have attempted this mod without success, so it will be useful to have all details well defined. To that end, I will attempt to further clarify your below 'clarifications', and to point out a mystery which may entail further discussion.
...the old sense resistor is 14D271, I replaced it with a 14D391.
It is easy enough to see that this "sense resistor" is what we call the "varistor". If this function is to be retained, its 'sense' voltage must be increased as r_s_f indicated.
...the controllor has a 7805 for get stable 5VDC power supply, but D11 can not bearing big current, and it may break if you directly use 220VAC power supply. ...So, replace D11 with 1N400* will resolve this problem, and the mod recharger now can accept 110VAC and 220VAC. ...
There are a couple things relative to those words that I want to talk about, and to do that I need to make use of r_s_f's mark-up of chappy's PWB photo:
markedTopSIde_r_s_f2.jpg
Notice that I have added the wide yellow line crossing the PWB. All components to the right of that line are in the High-Voltage Section, (HVS), and all components to the left are in the Low-Voltage Section, (LVS).

r_s_f found it necessary to replace diode "D11" found in the LVS. As seen in the photo, the original diode was a normal size, glass-bodied diode (which says it was not in the 1N400* family). By shifting to any of the 1N4001 --> 1N4007 diodes he jumped current handling to 1 amp. Even the lowest voltage (1N4001) diode in that family would serve.

In my mind. I am questioning why any circuit changes (relative to accommodating mains-voltage changes) were required in the LVS(?). Operation of the LVS is largely independent of the HVS, so long as the HVS is driving the T1 xfmr in a useful fashion. Hence, that diode revision is the mystery.
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Re: Mod for new Scooba Power Supply - 240v

Post by red_sword_fish »

There are two LV sides, and the PWM feed back signal is come from LV-2, perhaps we need rewiring Transformer for best voltage output of LV-1, I just simply replace D11.
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Re: Mod for new Scooba Power Supply - 240v

Post by Gordon »

red_sword_fish wrote:There are two LV side, and the PWM feed back is from LV-2,...
I take that to mean the opto-isolator is being driven by voltage derived in LV-2, which would be normal and traditional.

And, since you have apparently found a second low-voltage output, but one which is used internally...
... perhaps we need rewiring Transformer for best voltage output of LV-1, I just simply replace D11.
...I suspect it is the rectified voltage from the transformer's tertiary winding -- a winding which On-Semi touted as not being necessary in many of the NCP1200 uses, and therefore an option which iRobot would have avoided using [as a cost-saving measure]. However, since you find it present, it must be that D11 is its rectifier diode, and it became overstressed by virtue of transformer windings all being hit harder when 220VAC*root(2) = 311Vdc (rather than 170Vdc) is switched across its primary winding.

I wish someone would produce some schematic diagrams of these PSU sections! Such information could take out a lot of guess work when attempting modifications!
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